Project 2025??

[nerdspeak]

6 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I'm not saying that you are unattractive. Rather, I'm pointing out that your current belief system is acting as a deterrent. And that you seem to be steadfast in holding onto it and convincing yourself of its correctness, despite of the fact that it is not it.

I believe you could benefit from being more objective and understanding that reality is actually more favorable than the framework you're presenting, especially regarding women's interest in being with men.
 

I would sort of agree with this. Five years ago I was on-board with the neo-traditionalist ortho-bro stuff but if you actually go and live in these supposedly awesome based red-pilled countries you see that the patriarchal structure really limits people's freedoms a lot. 

I started to ask myself, do I really want a relationship to be more durable with a woman just because there is a huge power imbalance pressuring her to stay with me? 

For me, the answer is no -- I'd rather live in a society where she is free to go find someone else if she wants. I am not so scared of being alone or going back into the dating pool that I want my partner to feel trapped with me. 

The problem with the West is not the decline of traditional based patriarchal values. 

The problem is free market fundamentalism gone completely rampant, due to legalized corruption. When people lose all semblance of material security they start to go crazy. 

Edited July 4 by nerdspeak

[Danioover9000]

@nerdspeak

1 minute ago, nerdspeak said:

I would sort of agree with this. Five years ago I was on-board with the neo-traditionalist ortho-bro stuff but if you actually go and live in these supposedly awesome based red-pilled countries you see that the patriarchal structure really limits people's freedoms a lot. 

The problem with the West is not the decline of traditional based patriarchal values and the fact that women are no longer forced to do unpaid reproductive labor if they don't want to lol.

The problem is free market fundamentalism gone completely rampant, due to legalized corruption. 

   No, the problem in westernized countries is rampant high divorce rates, declines in birthrates, and the erosion of traditionally/conservative values. Too much feminism, egalitarianism, liberalism, and individualism run amok gets you to those problems of declining birthrates, high divorce rates, single parent broken households, and thinking American imperialism secularism is fantastic. It's not when it's too much, go see South Korea, Japan, Russia, and a few more countries for that.

[mrPixel]

10 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

rampant high divorce rates

How is this a problem?

11 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

declines in birthrates

How is this a problem?

11 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

thinking American imperialism secularism is fantastic

How is this a problem?

[Danioover9000]

@mrPixel

4 minutes ago, mrPixel said:

How is this a problem?

How is this a problem?

How is this a problem?

   High divorce rates=financial ruin as 50% is handed to the divorcing wife, and depending on your finance it's a bad outcome.

   Declining birthrates in your country=need to destabilize foreign countries that're 3rd world theocracies, which reproduce their replacement numbers and still have a strong robust tradition and family values, unlike most westernized countries, and contributing to mass immigration. Declining birthrates in your own nation and country means higher need to outsource labor, meaning Neoliberalism and capitalists can now be more predatory on foreign countries. Declining birthrates also partly happen because too much choice and freedom, and an increasing self destruction of a nation, which then breeds anarchy and chaos.

   American exceptionalism and American imperialism worldwide is bad because Neoliberalism tends to destabilize foreign theocratic countries and prevent other countries from potentially rising up to be a relative competitive peer to USA. USA wants to be the only superpower at all costs. Just look at Haiti for example.

[mrPixel]

You seem to believe that the left has gone too and the solution is to swing right. Or, maybe you just have right-wing values?

I'm more of the belief that the left just needs to back off a bit so they receive less backlash.

The problem we have right now is a culture war. At some point someone is going to have to back off and stop feeding it so we can confront real issues.

[Danioover9000]

@mrPixel

2 minutes ago, mrPixel said:

You seem to believe that the left has gone too and the solution is to swing right. Or, maybe you just have right-wing values?

I'm more of the belief that the left just needs to back off a bit so they receive less backlash.

The problem we have right now is a culture war. At some point someone is going to have to back off and stop feeding it so we can confront real issues.

   Me? I'm more central right here. My gripe is to not swing too much right or too much left, in this case it's out of left field.

   Yes, me too. The left need to stop going far left. What they need is to be grounded in reality, and just limit the democracy down. More senates, less voting powers. In fact American government needs some systemic changes to it to optimize for more limited democracy. A smaller democracy will get things down faster.

   Yes, unfortunately it's a culture war of those wanting more declines of birthrates, more divorce rates, more broken family homes and single parent households, more orphanages, more feminism/multiculturalism/egalitarianism, more capitalism. It's crazy. 

[nerdspeak]

@Danioover9000 There is no going back to traditional society. Women are not going to suddenly decide to go back to staying at home as unpaid domestic servants raising 4-5 children. Moreover, the high (male) wages required to support that model no longer exist.

@mrPixel The US "left" talks itself in circles around cultural issues because it cannot directly challenge finance capital while it's still tied to the Democratic Party. That said, the Biden administration has made some strides through investment in domestic manufacturing,  This is not a permanent solution but it's a band-aid for 10-15 years. 

 

Edited July 4 by nerdspeak

[Danioover9000]

@nerdspeak

4 minutes ago, nerdspeak said:

@Danioover9000 There is no going back to traditional society. Women are not going to suddenly decide to go back to staying at home as unpaid domestic servants raising 4-5 children. Moreover, the high (male) wages required to support that model no longer exist.

@mrPixel The US "left" talks itself in circles around cultural issues because it cannot directly challenge finance capital while it's still tied to the Democratic Party. That said, the Biden administration has made some strides through investment in domestic manufacturing,  This is not a permanent solution but it's a band-aid for 10-15 years. 

 

   Don't over generalize me or my positions. I'm not saying we should bring all women as home stay wives only. I'm saying we should fix the high divorce rates happening right now! And the declines in birthrates you lot are denying right now! And the toxic work culture that's destroying South Korea and Japan for example right now! And I say we do that by limiting democracy, multiculturalism, feminism, and egalitarianism. By limiting those we'll have lesser divorce rates, more chances for people to marry and have families, and boost the economy of most western countries. Also, with an increase in native birthrates Neoliberals and capitalists will have fewer excuses to destabilize 3rd world theocracies and add to mass immigration.

[Etherial Cat]

32 minutes ago, nerdspeak said:

I would sort of agree with this. Five years ago I was on-board with the neo-traditionalist ortho-bro stuff but if you actually go and live in these supposedly awesome based red-pilled countries you see that the patriarchal structure really limits people's freedoms a lot. 

I started to ask myself, do I really want a relationship to be more durable with a woman just because there is a huge power imbalance pressuring her to stay with me? 

For me, the answer is no -- I'd rather live in a society where she is free to go find someone else if she wants. I am not so scared of being alone or going back into the dating pool that I want my partner to feel trapped with me. 

The problem with the West is not the decline of traditional based patriarchal values. 

The problem is free market fundamentalism gone completely rampant, due to legalized corruption. When people lose all semblance of material security they start to go crazy. 

Nice. I am so happy to read these type of posts. So many time what you can read on the internet as a woman is awfully triggering, but beside the personal horror of imagining that such worldviews could be your actual life experience, there is also this deep feeling of sadness and human compassion for these men that are obviously so deep in the rabbit hole of unworthiness that they think the only viable way to get a partner is to force them through dominance or control. It's truly a deep form of unconscious self-hatred at play, and I can somewhat understand why this profound lack leads to radical, shadowy delusional measures to fill that void.

What helped you get out of the thought loop, if I may ask?

I find it challenging to help people see through the veil because many of them are completely disconnected from understanding what is truly happening within themselves. They'll look typically everywhere but inwards, and refuse to even consider some introspection on the matter.

[Danioover9000]

@Etherial Cat

6 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Nice. I am so happy to read these type of posts. So many time what you can read on the internet as a woman is awfully triggering, but beside the personal horror of imagining that such worldviews could be your actual life experience, there is also this deep feeling of sadness and human compassion for these men that are obviously so deep in the rabbit hole of unworthiness that they think the only viable way to get a partner is to force them through dominance or control. It's truly a deep form of unconscious self-hatred at play, and I can somewhat understand why this profound lack leads to radical, shadowy delusional measures to fill that void.

What helped you get out of the thought loop, if I may ask?

I find it challenging to help people see through the veil because many of them are completely disconnected from understanding what is truly happening within themselves. They'll look typically everywhere but inwards, and refuse to even consider some introspection on the matter.

   Completely divorced from reality of what Feminism, multiculturalism, egalitarianism, and secularism has down to most westernized countries. In fact these lofty ideals you all have need enforcement by men to work.

Edited July 4 by Danioover9000

[Etherial Cat]

4 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Etherial Cat

   Completely divorced from reality of what Feminism, multiculturalism, egalitarianism, and secularism has down to most westernized countries. In fact these lofty ideals you all have need enforcement by men to work.

There are still plenty of traditional blue-value societies. If you honestly examine how well they function, you'll be compelled to conclude that they are not successful outside of your theoretical ideals.

There are reasons why we moved passed it. It sucked for everyone.

[mrPixel]

19 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

I'm saying we should fix the high divorce rates happening right now!

I think the problem couples have is they don't know how to pick a partner and they don't know how to maintain a healthy relationship. Why should unhealthy relationships remain in place?

[Yimpa]

4 minutes ago, mrPixel said:

I think the problem couples have is they don't know how to pick a partner and they don't know how to maintain a healthy relationship. Why should unhealthy relationships remain in place?

I didn’t pick my partner. My partner picked me.

(I don’t live in Russia)

[nerdspeak]

24 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

What helped you get out of the thought loop, if I may ask?

I find it challenging to help people see through the veil because many of them are completely disconnected from understanding what is truly happening within themselves. They'll look typically everywhere but inwards, and refuse to even consider some introspection on the matter.

You can’t help people get out of it quickly, it takes years. Like it’s really not worth it,  they have to already suspect there’s something wrong with it from the beginning, get burned by it, and then have a friend or therapist who can help process the emotions in a way that helps them move out of it, rather than reinforcing the belief that it’s necessary.  

I’ll talk about my experience in Kyiv. It’s not a traditional society by any means but gender roles are more traditional and women are encouraged to be very strategic about their dating to improve their material security.  

I started to see that it wasn’t good for me and then started gathering evidence that it wasn’t necessary. 

Yes, more women in those cultures are superficially nice to Western men because they perceive us as high-status and potentially helpful in a crisis. 

But if the woman knows I’m playing an arbitrage game, and I know I’m playing an arbitrage game, there’s always a transactional element. And transactional people are not deeply loyal — if someone gives them a better offer they’ll jump ship. They will also keep escalating their demands to see what they can extract. This always feels kind of shitty, and the only way to win this game is to stop playing it.  

As a side note, even quite dumb Western expats in Ukraine are aware of this transactional bent and complain, often blaming it on Ukraine being unusually unstable, or Western influence, and say that women from Russia or Belarus are much cooler haha. 

After the war started, the demands from my Ukrainian partner escalated beyond what I could offer without feeling resentment and I just felt a strong desire to get out of these transactional relationships and be around people I could learn things from.

[mrPixel]

15 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Completely divorced from reality of what Feminism, multiculturalism, egalitarianism, and secularism has down to most westernized countries.

I would say that certain leftist idealists overshot the mark. But that's to be expected as mistakes happen and we learn from them. You don't just throw the baby out with the bathwater. You claim that progressives are divorced from reality but believing that we could go back in time and adopt values that we outgrew is not exactly grounded in reality either. Things change. Such is life.

[mrPixel]

4 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I didn’t pick my partner. My partner picked me.

(I don’t live in Russia)

Lol what?

[Yimpa]

34 minutes ago, mrPixel said:

You claim that progressives are divorced from reality but believing that we could go back in time and adopt values that we outgrew is not exactly grounded in reality either. Things change. Such is life.

How do you accommodate for a whole bunch of people who are thoroughly convinced that their past reality is the only reality that exists? 

[nerdspeak]

7 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

How do you accommodate for a whole bunch of people who are thoroughly convinced that their past reality is the only reality that exists? 

You let them keep doing their thing. If people want to believe the earth is 6,000 years old that's fine as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on everyone else. 

Of course they will try, but it won't work long-term. 

[mrPixel]

17 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

How do you accommodate for a whole bunch of people who are thoroughly convinced that their past reality is the only reality that exists? 

We live in a post-truth world where facts literally don't matter. Greed and hatred reign supreme. 

Truth, kindness, and equality is my vision for the future but from others point of view these are radical ideas.

Delusion is under no one's control which makes it the most formidable opponent.

To answer your question I would say to lead with honesty and kindness. Do good, be patient.

[Danioover9000]

@mrPixel

3 hours ago, mrPixel said:

I think the problem couples have is they don't know how to pick a partner and they don't know how to maintain a healthy relationship. Why should unhealthy relationships remain in place?

   Sure, I partly agree you may need some dating and sex experience, but I'm also arguing that we have too much sexual liberation like Only Fans and porn. Too much skin, onl;y fans and porn /=/ healthy relations or healthy marriage, in fact those poly relations leads to more sexual degeneracy and break down f ACTUAL healthy monogamous relations, but that's a different argument for later.