Presidential Debate + RFK

[Yimpa]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@ryandesreu

   He actually has a checkered past which should give you pause. But if you like his takes fine, just be skeptical.

[Bobby_2021]

On 7/5/2024 at 1:47 AM, Leo Gura said:

That's just a right-wing narrative. Don't buy into it.

California is so overpopulated because it has been the most successful state in the country.

Red states dream of California's success.

Yes, California has it's problems but most states do. The whole US is not gonna turn into California because California has a progressive supermajority. We have the opposite problem nationally.

I might be wrong. But from what I understand, California is rich simply because a lot of rich dudes decided to invest it all in a nice place for themselves, inflating the prices to sky and normies started flocking in to get a share. 

It's just a shitshow of elitist forces draining the workers who share rooms with 4 other dudes while paying rent 4 times high as some place else. All that rent is going into the hands of the established elites. The big wages you get are almost meaningless since the cost of living is too damn high to sustain. 

So basically be filthy rich to be in the top 1% and cali works for you, or be exploited by the top 1%.

Not a model that other states should be following.

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

   Yes Beau does have a checkered past of allegedly being in private militia trafficking some middle easterners to Guantanamo Bay, guilty or not guilty of terrorism.

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

2 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I might be wrong. But from what I understand, California is rich simply because a lot of rich dudes decided to invest it all in a nice place for themselves, inflating the prices to sky and normies started flocking in to get a share. 

It's just a shitshow of elitist forces draining the workers who share rooms with 4 other dudes while paying rent 4 times high as some place else. All that rent is going into the hands of the established elites. The big wages you get are almost meaningless since the cost of living is too damn high to sustain. 

So basically be filthy rich to be in the top 1% and cali works for you, or be exploited by the top 1%.

Not a model that other states should be following.

   You're actually not that far off, you're more right than you think!

[Yimpa]

34 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Yimpa

   Yes Beau does have a checkered past of allegedly being in private militia trafficking some middle easterners to Guantanamo Bay, guilty or not guilty of terrorism.

I also have  a past. Wise people evolve and mature.

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

23 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I also have  a past. Wise people evolve and mature.

   You mean a past of trafficking people???

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I might be wrong. But from what I understand, California is rich simply because a lot of rich dudes decided to invest it all in a nice place for themselves, inflating the prices to sky and normies started flocking in to get a share. 

It's just a shitshow of elitist forces draining the workers who share rooms with 4 other dudes while paying rent 4 times high as some place else. All that rent is going into the hands of the established elites. The big wages you get are almost meaningless since the cost of living is too damn high to sustain. 

So basically be filthy rich to be in the top 1% and cali works for you, or be exploited by the top 1%.

Not a model that other states should be following.

Don't forget that California's liberal culture attracted and generated all the wealth to create those elites. Meanwhile, Mississippi did not.

Those elites also pay California a lot of taxes.

It is ironic BS that conservatives criciticize California for its massive capitalistic success and excesses when it is their wildest dream to be that successful. If conservatives were socialists then they could criticiize California.

Edited July 6, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

Jerry Brown's father developed the California University and Community College system which use to be affordable until more recently.   The education was important to the high tech industry.  

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't forget that California's liberal culture attracted and generated all the wealth to create those elites. Meanwhile, Mississippi did not.

That’s not true. California voted for the conservative Republican Party from the 50’s and later became purple until it shifted liberal through the 90s. Hollywood formed in California because of the weather and to escape patents, it was a conservative industry at one point. Silicone valley formed due to defense investment and various contractual laws. The land and weather also made it productive for agriculture. 
 

It’s more likely the wealth made them shift liberal than the other way around.

Edited July 7, 2024 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

@Raze It was still relatively liberal

California is liberal because it didn't have much to conserve because I was one of the last colonized parts of the world.

[Bobby_2021]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't forget that California's liberal culture attracted and generated all the wealth to create those elites

It could be, but it's highly likely to be the other way around.

They got the money first and became liberal.

The order of events do matter.

Showering any society with money will make them liberal for obvious reasons. Same would be true for Mississippi or Texas, given geographical factor don't stand in the way. Any politician standing in the way could be bought and sold.

6 hours ago, Raze said:

That’s not true. California voted for the conservative Republican Party from the 50’s and later became purple until it shifted liberal through the 90s. Hollywood formed in California because of the weather and to escape patents, it was a conservative industry at one point. Silicone valley formed due to defense investment and various contractual laws. The land and weather also made it productive for agriculture. 

It’s more likely the wealth made them shift liberal than the other way around.

Good observation.

---

I agree that conservatives criticising California doesn't make sense. I am criticising them from a socialist point of view. But they wouldn't be conservatives if they had so much money thrown at them.

Ironically, California criticising conservatives for begin backward and illiberal doesn't also make sense because conservatives states simply didn't get what they needed to be as liberal like California did.

They are the capitalist hell that they seek to dispel. 

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Raze It was still relatively liberal

California is liberal because it didn't have much to conserve because I was one of the last colonized parts of the world.

Geography could have played a part. 

Geography was a significant factor in attracting investments like @Raze mentioned and the same factors also could make a society liberal.

I don't know about the specifics of their colonial history. Being the last to be colonized means that geography  protected their wealth, from getting stolen from them, directly or otherwise.

Geography is akin to be naturally blessed with wealth, which then attracts even more wealth.

[Scholar]

@Leo Gura How does it feel to have a king?

[DocWatts]

The most awful part is that regardless of if Trump wins the election, the Supreme Court has initiated a judicial coup which gives any future president all of the tools they need to become an autocrat.

LegalEagle describes it as if the Supreme Court just effectively amended the Constitution to end checks and balances (which the Founding Fathers very much intended) for the Executive Branch. The president now has broad legal immunity to take bribes, make efforts to overturn election, attempt a military coup, or assassinate political opponents. The salt in the wound is that 5 of the 6 justices who gave the president the powers of a King were themselves appointed by presidents who lost the popular vote.

So in short, American democracy looks to be fucked. Hybrid regime here we come.

Edited July 7, 2024 by DocWatts

[Bobby_2021]

Using the supreme court to overrule the state is a standard regime change practice used by the United States to conduct subversive activities in democracies abroad. There are even books written on it.

It's a pleasure seeing the snake they let loose bite them back in the ass. 

The supreme court has massive powers, and you only need to convince 4-5 people to be on your side, which is a little easier than convincing hundreds of millions of people to be on your side. 

The supreme court can easily strike down democratic reforms simply because they can and nothing more needs to be said.

Edited July 7, 2024 by Bobby_2021

[Raze]

4 hours ago, DocWatts said:

The most awful part is that regardless of if Trump wins the election, the Supreme Court has initiated a judicial coup which gives any future president all of the tools they need to become an autocrat.

LegalEagle describes it as if the Supreme Court just effectively amended the Constitution to end checks and balances (which the Founding Fathers very much intended) for the Executive Branch. The president now has broad legal immunity to take bribes, make efforts to overturn election, attempt a military coup, or assassinate political opponents. The salt in the wound is that 5 of the 6 justices who gave the president the powers of a King were themselves appointed by presidents who lost the popular vote.

So in short, American democracy looks to be fucked. Hybrid regime here we come.

It already happened when Obama assassinated a US citizen without trial to no consequences, the court just formalized it.

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

Just now, Raze said:

It already happened when Obama assassinated a US citizen without trial to no consequences, the court just formalized it.

   Really? Who got assassinated?

[Bobby_2021]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

It already happened when Obama assassinated a US citizen without trial to no consequences, the court just formalized it.

Let me guess. Alphabet agencies (deep state) did it for him. Either way, he will never be convicted. 

Either have endless power or a good lawyer and your past never comes to haunt you. 

[DocWatts]

27 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Using the supreme court to overrule the state is a standard regime change practice used by the United States to conduct subversive activities in democracies abroad. There are even books written on it.

It's a pleasure seeing the snake they let loose bite them back in the ass. 

The supreme court has massive powers, and you only need to convince 4-5 people to be on your side, which is a little easier than convincing hundreds of millions of people to be on your side. 

The supreme court can easily strike down democratic reforms simply because they can and nothing more needs to be said.

It almost sounds like you think that American citizens are deserving of collective punishment because of the actions of the US government over the past 100 years. Not a very compassionate take, especially since much of that clandestine foreign policy was done without the American public's informed knowledge or consent.

I wonder if you'd apply the same logic to the 1.3 billion people living in China for the actions of the Chinese Communist Party.

Edited July 7, 2024 by DocWatts

[Bobby_2021]

6 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

I wonder if you'd apply the same logic to the 1.3 billion people living in China for the actions of the Chinese Communist Party.

The people in China are suffering for the actions of the CCP. But the problem is that Americans are oblivious to the suffering of the people elsewhere even when it is caused by the US govt. They will even feel morally superior because they are the direct or indirect beneficiaries of American hegemony.  So, it is only fair that they pay the full price. 

This is the problem playing with snakes. It will come back to bite you. This is by design. I do not wish collective punishment.

Now that the US is struggling with their own democracy, the rest of the world can live in peace. For that I am happy. 

[DocWatts]

25 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The people in China are suffering for the actions of the CCP. But the problem is that Americans are oblivious to the suffering of the people elsewhere even when it is caused by the US govt. They will even feel morally superior because they are the direct or indirect beneficiaries of American hegemony.  So, it is only fair that they pay the full price. 

 

The subset of the US population that feels this way also happens to be the ones who are supporting the Christian Nationalist's efforts to end US democracy.

It's marginalized people within the US, along with Leftist and progressives who aren't on board with American imperialism who will end up suffering the most from the collapse of US democracy. Not the willfully ignorant, morally superior subset of the population that you're alluding to. US Hateriots expect Trump to be 'thier' dictator, and they're the worst of the worst as far as being oblivious to the harm that the US causes in other parts of the world.

I'd re-examine that punitive attitude if I were you. It's the equivalent of thinking that Germans in 1930s are getting thier 'just desserts' for World War 1, not recognizing the gravity of a vengeful dictator for people outside of Germany.

 

Edited July 7, 2024 by DocWatts