Presidential Debate + RFK

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill I would literally happily vote for a baboon over Trump. At least the baboon will not errode democracy from within.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not really.

Progressives like TYT offer a bold leftist vision but conservatives and Stage Blue hate and demonize that even more than Biden.

The reality is that many of these brainwashed ignorant Stage Blue people are too far gone to be ameniable to any form of Stage Green.

A Christian Nationalist is not want of a bold progressive vision. Fundamentalism is precisely a reactionary movement against progess.

These people want a patriarchal state run by a strongman who puts anyone in line who steps out of the orthodox line. This is what many people crave. They want a Christian hierarchy of elites which in their view is ordained by God.

They are too ignorant, closedminded, and under-developed to compromise on that.

If anything, bold progressivism scares normies off to side with Blue. All that trans stuff and drag shows have scared off normies. Normies are deeply attached to traditional culture.

This is way too simplistic a perspective. Politicians can run on multiple issues to win over diverse groups. Many stage blue people would vote for left leaning politicians if they felt they agreed on some priority issues. The democrats don’t run on those issues though. Republicans actually do this by uniting both religious conservatives and libertarian leaning stage orange voters.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Raze

[Raze]

1 hour ago, ryandesreu said:

One would think that RFK's approval ratings will increase after the debates. He looks like maybe the strongest candidate, but I would like to see him debate the other two. He is anti-vax which is a concern, but other than that, he has good ideas. 

His approval isn’t his problem, his problem is fame, most people don’t know him or think he can’t win so there is no point in voting for him

48 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

RFK jr. has zero real experience with politics or holding any kind of office in the government. He also is as crazy as Trump is in his own way. He would be very dangerous to the country in his own way. His running mate Shanahan also has no idea what the hell she's doing either. Also, there's obviously no path for him to win the presidency. He needs to stop being a spoiler by dropping out now. 

Just because someone doesn’t have experience in office doesn’t mean they are dangerous. Politicians with decades of experience in office have put Americans at huge risk many times, including Biden. The establishment isn’t always right.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Raze said:

This is way too simplistic a perspective. Politicians can run on multiple issues to win over diverse groups. Many stage blue people would vote for left leaning politicians if they felt they agreed on some priority issues. The democrats don’t run on those issues though. Republicans actually do this by uniting both religious conservatives and libertarian leaning stage orange voters.

People don't vote on issues, they vote on culture, Spiral stage, and vibes.

There is no issue that Dems can give to stage Blue people to get them to abandon their culture and Spiral stage.

This is a political strategy mistake. You can't buy a Christian's vote with higher minimum wage and wealth tax. They are too ignorant and brainwashed to care about such things.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not really.

Progressives like TYT offer a bold leftist vision but conservatives and Stage Blue hate and demonize that even more than Biden.

The reality is that many of these brainwashed ignorant Stage Blue people are too far gone to be ameniable to any form of Stage Green.

A Christian Nationalist is not want of a bold progressive vision. Fundamentalism is precisely a reactionary movement against progess.

These people want a patriarchal state run by a strongman who puts anyone in line who steps out of the orthodox line. This is what many people crave. They want a Christian hierarchy of elites which in their view is ordained by God.

They are too ignorant, closedminded, and under-developed to compromise on that.

If anything, bold progressivism scares normies off to side with Blue. All that trans stuff and drag shows have scared off normies. Normies are deeply attached to traditional culture.

During Obama's presidency and even somewhat during Trump's first term as president, Democrats also made a terrible mistake by not putting in the real work to really build a groundswell of widespread support for a wide liberal/progressive movement in America.

The left-wing movements in the 2010s such as Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, and the Fight for $15, had some successes, but they were still too weak compared to the right-wing movements that emerged then such as the Tea Party, Trumpism, and the Christian Right. 

The Right-wing since the late 70s having constantly expanded the intellectual and organizational base, with think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation; books such as Jude Wanniski’s supply-side primer How the World Really Works; and journals such as The Public Interest and Commentary helped pave the way for the Reagan revolution once the Republicans attained the White House. The left-wing lost too much momentum with their movements during the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.

Even after the election of Obama in 2008, the Dems and libs didn't adapt to changes in the media landscape and invest enough in building their own media infrastructure to counterbalance the conservative media machine. By not combating this ecosystem effectively, they allowed conservative ideas and narratives to dominate public discourse and shape political opinion for decades since the late 80s to early 90s.

The Democratic leader since the 90s including Obama, Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton were too afraid of being a partisan advocate for liberalism. 

That's why Bernie Sanders and his progressive movement eventually emerged by the end of Obama's presidency and that's why the Democrats, liberals, and progressives have realized since late the 2010s and 2020, that they have to rebuilding their entire party's infrastructure in order to effectively fight back the Republicans and MAGA.

 

[Hardkill]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

His approval isn’t his problem, his problem is fame, most people don’t know him or think he can’t win so there is no point in voting for him

Just because someone doesn’t have experience in office doesn’t mean they are dangerous. Politicians with decades of experience in office have put Americans at huge risk many times, including Biden. The establishment isn’t always right.

Prove it.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

The left-wing movements in the 2010s such as Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, and the Fight for $15, had some successes, but they were still too weak compared to the right-wing movements

Those radical leftist movements will never have mainstream appeal because they challenge normie culture too much.

Leftist culture is the problem. It's deeply offputting to traditional people. To them leftists appear like dirty pedophile Communists. You're not going to win them over by fighting with even more zealotry. The solution is not more TYT vibes.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

People don't vote on issues, they vote on culture, Spiral stage, and vibes.

There is no issue that Dems can give to stage Blue people to get them to abandon their culture and Spiral stage.

This is a political strategy mistake. You can't buy a Christian's vote with higher minimum wage and wealth tax. They are too ignorant and brainwashed to care about such things.

Polls found Bernie Sanders had a comfortable lead over trump if he was in the general in 2016 because he appealed more to independents and republicans who didn’t vote in the democratic primary 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Polls found Bernie Sanders had a comfortable lead over trump if he was in the general in 2016 because he appealed more to independents and republicans who didn’t vote in the democratic primary 

Bernie has unique qualities which no other politician has. But even so, he is still incapable of winning a primary. The reason Bernie isn't president is because people refused to vote for him. That's the bottom line.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Bernie has unique qualities which no other politician has.

Those actually hurt him, many found his socialism position too radical.

But he focused on practical working class issues.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Raze said:

Those actually hurt him, many found his socialism position too radical.

But he focused on practical working class issues.

Bernie's radicalness is what makes him authentic, which makes him appealing over everyone else who is just a group-thinking corporate stooge.

Focusing on practical working class issues is exactly what makes you radical. Because the radical is the one who is a real threat to power. And power is business as usual and exploitation as usual.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Those radical leftist movements will never have mainstream appeal because they challenge normie culture too much.

Leftist culture is the problem. It's deeply offputting to traditional people. To them leftists appear like dirty pedophile Communists. You're not going to win them over by fighting with even more zealotry. The solution is not more TYT vibes.

Then, why did Noam Chomsky and many other like you said that Bernie Sanders and his progressive movement has made a critical impact on the country by shifting the overton window more to the left in our country and making issues that once were unthinkable to being much more mainstream?

Besides, we don't have to win the people over through radical left movements. Even Noam Chomsky said that you can influence the American people, especially the younger generation of folks to support more liberal/progressive ideas by reviving the labor union movement, support the women's rights movement, grow the climate change movements, promote the civil rights movement for racial minorities, etc. According to US History, none of those things have ever been "too radical." In fact, all of these movements have lately become the most prominent they have ever been since like the 60s or the early 70s.

The Democratic party has become the strongest it has ever been in over a generation and the level of liberal/progressive influence I've been seeing in our country is the greatest I've ever seen in my entire life.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill Of course all political talk has some influence on the center of gravity of the culture.

But the culture is also reactive. It counter-balances any attempt to shift it in any direction.

Bernie had his influence, but it wasn't enough to usher in a progressive president.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Hardkill Of course all poltical talk has some influence on the center of gravity of the culture.

But the culture is also reactive. It counter-balances any attempt to shift it in any direction.

That's why this really is going to have to be a decades long ideological war for greater liberty and justice for all.

We can't such just do nothing and surrender to the radical right wing.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Hardkill

[BlueOak]

Limited Socialism fixes social issues, because its always the missing piece. Now the missing piece is going to be liberalism and socialism, which is why there are riots in France and people complaining about the riots.

The more of life that is excluded or unconscious, the greater the instability.

[Merkabah Star]

On 30/6/2024 at 3:07 PM, Leo Gura said:

Just stop with this BS.

Fair enough. Foreigners do look at US politics in a different way so opinions can be brutal. I will tone it down.

I do agree with you about Bernie Sanders and also Gavin Newsom being the nomination. Maybe Newsom could swing it around? I vote to the left in my own country. 

Edited July 1, 2024 by Merkabah Star

[zazen]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not really.

Progressives like TYT offer a bold leftist vision but conservatives and Stage Blue hate and demonize that even more than Biden.

The reality is that many of these brainwashed ignorant Stage Blue people are too far gone to be ameniable to any form of Stage Green.

A Christian Nationalist is not want of a bold progressive vision. Fundamentalism is precisely a reactionary movement against progess.

These people want a patriarchal state run by a strongman who puts anyone in line who steps out of the orthodox line. This is what many people crave. They want a Christian hierarchy of elites which in their view is ordained by God.

They are too ignorant, closedminded, and under-developed to compromise on that.

If anything, bold progressivism scares normies off to side with Blue. All that trans stuff and drag shows have scared off normies. Normies are deeply attached to traditional culture.

Got it, so the rise of Christian Nationalism isn't due to a lack of vision from progressives but a reaction to a vision they don't like - in some cases they probably can't even see the vision.

I think what happens is that stage green's excesses or shadow elements get spotlighted by normies which causes them to go 'better to stay in our bubble because look at that shit over there'. For example just yesterday I've been seeing right wing/normie twitter sharing the degeneracy of grown men walking in San Francisco with their dicks out in front of children for Pride month - and a cop saying its fine.  A public blowjob also took place - https://x.com/CensoredMen/status/1807591499061772462

So while fundamentalism may be a reaction to progressivism, we can understand whats causing it. I also think when people have children they tend to tilt towards conservatism.  Like Russell Brand recently becoming a dad and now turning to Christianity.  It's not just about faith - it's about the challenge of breaking down complex ideas for young minds. Distilling nuanced perspectives for kids isn't easy. So parents feel this pressure to present a solid identity, something their kids can latch onto and emulate. It's like they're trying to be a stable lighthouse in a often chaotic and confusing world.

So most, out a of need for identity, belonging and convenience turn to religion. It's like a ready made kit of values and world views, neatly packaged in an easy to transmit format. It's the fast food of moral frameworks - quick, convenient, and easily passed down to the next generation. The issue is that along with those valuable life lessons comes a lot of baggage of religious literalism, dogma and half truths. 

Edited July 1, 2024 by zazen

[Scholar]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He is bad in other areas like Israel.

But I would be okay with RFK to get rid of Trump. That is a reasonable compromise.

Have you heard what he said about Ukraine? The guy is an existential threat.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

People don't vote on issues, they vote on culture, Spiral stage, and vibes.

https://www.actualized.org/insights/why-bernie-sanders-lost

[Dabidoe]

It should not surprise anyone that any presidential candidate that lacks broad-appeal, is unable to play to "middle america", garner outsized attention is incapable of winning the presidency.

People like Bernie and AOC move culture (shift overton window etc.) but the people who "win" in politics are the ones who play the popularity contest of making promises you can't/don't intend to deliver on based on appealing to the middle, not the purity of virtues or ideology.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Dabidoe