Presidential Debate + RFK

[ryandesreu]

One would think that RFK's approval ratings will increase after the debates. He looks like maybe the strongest candidate, but I would like to see him debate the other two. He is anti-vax which is a concern, but other than that, he has good ideas. 

Edited June 30 by ryandesreu

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, ryandesreu said:

he has good ideas. 

He is bad in other areas like Israel.

But I would be okay with RFK to get rid of Trump. That is a reasonable compromise.

Edited June 30 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Big problem for Biden is that he presents no big vision of change. It's all minor incremental, defensive stuff. Nothing bold for his base to get excited about.

Meanwhile Trump presents his base with a juicy vision of overturning the entire liberal order.

Biden had to come out and say that in 2025 we are:

• Legalizing weed
• Increasing corporate taxes
• Wealth tax on billionaires
• Green energy
• Federal right to abortion
• Reforming the corrupt Supreme Court
• Ending Israeli war
• Cracking down on monoplies and corporate wolves
• Cutting 500 drug prices in half
• Cracking down on corruption and white collar crime.
• Cracking down on illegal immigration
• Regulating AI companies and Big Tech
• Major funding for education
• Major funding for infrastructure
• Raising minimum wage

 

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

Thars what’s needed. Biden's presidency is less "hope and change" and more "nope and the same." He's the political equivalent of a participation trophy - there just for showing up, but not presenting a bold vision and stepping into it, he can barely step up the airforce 1.

Biden's not Trump. And for a lot of people that's enough. But "not being the other guy" is a pretty low bar for the leader of a major power. US has gone from "Yes We Can" to "At Least He's Not That Guy." It's like being excited that your car's on fire because at least it's not exploding.

Progressives aren’t excited for Biden, but are for not having Trump. They aren’t playing to win but to not lose - a negative excitement, which isn’t really excitement at all. It’s lukewarm political loyalty. It's familiar and safe, but it's ultimately unsatisfying and out of touch with what America actually needs right now.

In relation to your latest blog post on Christian nationalism which is brilliant - isn’t a contributing factor to the rise of Christian nationalism exactly because of this lacking vision by the left.

Moral relativism of the left has left people starving for a moral anchor to guide them, and because most are too unconscious they revert to stage blue Christianity which they now are incorporating into stage Orange capitalism. Dogmatic divinity marrying vampiric capitalism.

We have the likes of Richard Dawkins to Russel Brand converting to Christianity, or Dawkins just being a “cultural Christian”. Big time atheists like Dawkins and Ayaan Hursi Ali are suddenly donning the robes of religion, not out of sincere spiritual awakening, but as a desperate shield from a soulless secular culture they helped create.

The left went too far in deconstructing structure and labelling everything as a construct as if it has no basis or meaning to a reality we very much feel with our senses. This left is right, up is down, man is woman politics has dizzied, dazed and disenfranchised many into regressing to old belief systems. Those beliefs will now be hinged to modern tools and levels of power with the ability to destroy and gut much progress out of society. They will be the new ‘deconstructionists’ but in their own way.

 

[Hardkill]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

He is bad in other areas like Israel.

But I would be okay with RFK to get rid of Trump. That is a reasonable compromise.

RFK jr. has zero real experience with politics or holding any kind of office in the government. He also is as crazy as Trump is in his own way. He would be very dangerous to the country in his own way. His running mate Shanahan also has no idea what the hell she's doing either. Also, there's obviously no path for him to win the presidency. He needs to stop being a spoiler by dropping out now. 

Edited June 30 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

isn’t a contributing factor to the rise of Christian nationalism exactly because of this lacking vision by the left.

Not really.

Progressives like TYT offer a bold leftist vision but conservatives and Stage Blue hate and demonize that even more than Biden.

The reality is that many of these brainwashed ignorant Stage Blue people are too far gone to be ameniable to any form of Stage Green.

A Christian Nationalist is not want of a bold progressive vision. Fundamentalism is precisely a reactionary movement against progess.

These people want a patriarchal state run by a strongman who puts anyone in line who steps out of the orthodox line. This is what many people crave. They want a Christian hierarchy of elites which in their view is ordained by God.

They are too ignorant, closedminded, and under-developed to compromise on that.

If anything, bold progressivism scares normies off to side with Blue. All that trans stuff and drag shows have scared off normies. Normies are deeply attached to traditional culture.

Edited June 30 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill I would literally happily vote for a baboon over Trump. At least the baboon will not errode democracy from within.

Edited July 1 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not really.

Progressives like TYT offer a bold leftist vision but conservatives and Stage Blue hate and demonize that even more than Biden.

The reality is that many of these brainwashed ignorant Stage Blue people are too far gone to be ameniable to any form of Stage Green.

A Christian Nationalist is not want of a bold progressive vision. Fundamentalism is precisely a reactionary movement against progess.

These people want a patriarchal state run by a strongman who puts anyone in line who steps out of the orthodox line. This is what many people crave. They want a Christian hierarchy of elites which in their view is ordained by God.

They are too ignorant, closedminded, and under-developed to compromise on that.

If anything, bold progressivism scares normies off to side with Blue. All that trans stuff and drag shows have scared off normies. Normies are deeply attached to traditional culture.

This is way too simplistic a perspective. Politicians can run on multiple issues to win over diverse groups. Many stage blue people would vote for left leaning politicians if they felt they agreed on some priority issues. The democrats don’t run on those issues though. Republicans actually do this by uniting both religious conservatives and libertarian leaning stage orange voters.

Edited July 1 by Raze

[ryandesreu]

59 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

He is bad in other areas like Israel.

But I would be okay with RFK to get rid of Trump. That is a reasonable compromise.

I couldn't agree with you more. 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, ryandesreu said:

One would think that RFK's approval ratings will increase after the debates. He looks like maybe the strongest candidate, but I would like to see him debate the other two. He is anti-vax which is a concern, but other than that, he has good ideas. 

His approval isn’t his problem, his problem is fame, most people don’t know him or think he can’t win so there is no point in voting for him

48 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

RFK jr. has zero real experience with politics or holding any kind of office in the government. He also is as crazy as Trump is in his own way. He would be very dangerous to the country in his own way. His running mate Shanahan also has no idea what the hell she's doing either. Also, there's obviously no path for him to win the presidency. He needs to stop being a spoiler by dropping out now. 

Just because someone doesn’t have experience in office doesn’t mean they are dangerous. Politicians with decades of experience in office have put Americans at huge risk many times, including Biden. The establishment isn’t always right.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Raze said:

This is way too simplistic a perspective. Politicians can run on multiple issues to win over diverse groups. Many stage blue people would vote for left leaning politicians if they felt they agreed on some priority issues. The democrats don’t run on those issues though. Republicans actually do this by uniting both religious conservatives and libertarian leaning stage orange voters.

People don't vote on issues, they vote on culture, Spiral stage, and vibes.

There is no issue that Dems can give to stage Blue people to get them to abandon their culture and Spiral stage.

This is a political strategy mistake. You can't buy a Christian's vote with higher minimum wage and wealth tax. They are too ignorant and brainwashed to care about such things.

Edited July 1 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not really.

Progressives like TYT offer a bold leftist vision but conservatives and Stage Blue hate and demonize that even more than Biden.

The reality is that many of these brainwashed ignorant Stage Blue people are too far gone to be ameniable to any form of Stage Green.

A Christian Nationalist is not want of a bold progressive vision. Fundamentalism is precisely a reactionary movement against progess.

These people want a patriarchal state run by a strongman who puts anyone in line who steps out of the orthodox line. This is what many people crave. They want a Christian hierarchy of elites which in their view is ordained by God.

They are too ignorant, closedminded, and under-developed to compromise on that.

If anything, bold progressivism scares normies off to side with Blue. All that trans stuff and drag shows have scared off normies. Normies are deeply attached to traditional culture.

During Obama's presidency and even somewhat during Trump's first term as president, Democrats also made a terrible mistake by not putting in the real work to really build a groundswell of widespread support for a wide liberal/progressive movement in America.

The left-wing movements in the 2010s such as Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, and the Fight for $15, had some successes, but they were still too weak compared to the right-wing movements that emerged then such as the Tea Party, Trumpism, and the Christian Right. 

The Right-wing since the late 70s having constantly expanded the intellectual and organizational base, with think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation; books such as Jude Wanniski’s supply-side primer How the World Really Works; and journals such as The Public Interest and Commentary helped pave the way for the Reagan revolution once the Republicans attained the White House. The left-wing lost too much momentum with their movements during the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.

Even after the election of Obama in 2008, the Dems and libs didn't adapt to changes in the media landscape and invest enough in building their own media infrastructure to counterbalance the conservative media machine. By not combating this ecosystem effectively, they allowed conservative ideas and narratives to dominate public discourse and shape political opinion for decades since the late 80s to early 90s.

The Democratic leader since the 90s including Obama, Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton were too afraid of being a partisan advocate for liberalism. 

That's why Bernie Sanders and his progressive movement eventually emerged by the end of Obama's presidency and that's why the Democrats, liberals, and progressives have realized since late the 2010s and 2020, that they have to rebuilding their entire party's infrastructure in order to effectively fight back the Republicans and MAGA.

 

[Hardkill]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

His approval isn’t his problem, his problem is fame, most people don’t know him or think he can’t win so there is no point in voting for him

Just because someone doesn’t have experience in office doesn’t mean they are dangerous. Politicians with decades of experience in office have put Americans at huge risk many times, including Biden. The establishment isn’t always right.

Prove it.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

The left-wing movements in the 2010s such as Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, and the Fight for $15, had some successes, but they were still too weak compared to the right-wing movements

Those radical leftist movements will never have mainstream appeal because they challenge normie culture too much.

Leftist culture is the problem. It's deeply offputting to traditional people. To them leftists appear like dirty pedophile Communists. You're not going to win them over by fighting with even more zealotry. The solution is not more TYT vibes.

Edited July 1 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

People don't vote on issues, they vote on culture, Spiral stage, and vibes.

There is no issue that Dems can give to stage Blue people to get them to abandon their culture and Spiral stage.

This is a political strategy mistake. You can't buy a Christian's vote with higher minimum wage and wealth tax. They are too ignorant and brainwashed to care about such things.

Polls found Bernie Sanders had a comfortable lead over trump if he was in the general in 2016 because he appealed more to independents and republicans who didn’t vote in the democratic primary 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Polls found Bernie Sanders had a comfortable lead over trump if he was in the general in 2016 because he appealed more to independents and republicans who didn’t vote in the democratic primary 

Bernie has unique qualities which no other politician has. But even so, he is still incapable of winning a primary. The reason Bernie isn't president is because people refused to vote for him. That's the bottom line.

Edited July 1 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Bernie has unique qualities which no other politician has.

Those actually hurt him, many found his socialism position too radical.

But he focused on practical working class issues.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Raze said:

Those actually hurt him, many found his socialism position too radical.

But he focused on practical working class issues.

Bernie's radicalness is what makes him authentic, which makes him appealing over everyone else who is just a group-thinking corporate stooge.

Focusing on practical working class issues is exactly what makes you radical. Because the radical is the one who is a real threat to power. And power is business as usual and exploitation as usual.

Edited July 1 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Those radical leftist movements will never have mainstream appeal because they challenge normie culture too much.

Leftist culture is the problem. It's deeply offputting to traditional people. To them leftists appear like dirty pedophile Communists. You're not going to win them over by fighting with even more zealotry. The solution is not more TYT vibes.

Then, why did Noam Chomsky and many other like you said that Bernie Sanders and his progressive movement has made a critical impact on the country by shifting the overton window more to the left in our country and making issues that once were unthinkable to being much more mainstream?

Besides, we don't have to win the people over through radical left movements. Even Noam Chomsky said that you can influence the American people, especially the younger generation of folks to support more liberal/progressive ideas by reviving the labor union movement, support the women's rights movement, grow the climate change movements, promote the civil rights movement for racial minorities, etc. According to US History, none of those things have ever been "too radical." In fact, all of these movements have lately become the most prominent they have ever been since like the 60s or the early 70s.

The Democratic party has become the strongest it has ever been in over a generation and the level of liberal/progressive influence I've been seeing in our country is the greatest I've ever seen in my entire life.

Edited July 1 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill Of course all political talk has some influence on the center of gravity of the culture.

But the culture is also reactive. It counter-balances any attempt to shift it in any direction.

Bernie had his influence, but it wasn't enough to usher in a progressive president.

Edited July 1 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Hardkill Of course all poltical talk has some influence on the center of gravity of the culture.

But the culture is also reactive. It counter-balances any attempt to shift it in any direction.

That's why this really is going to have to be a decades long ideological war for greater liberty and justice for all.

We can't such just do nothing and surrender to the radical right wing.

Edited July 1 by Hardkill