Trump is going to win the election

[Something Funny]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Teach me your ways, oh exasperated wise one. As your humble student, I apologize for my recalcitrance.  

To be fair, you did quote him first, several times, actually.

[Talinn]

1 minute ago, Joshe said:

I have questioned my reads and will look deeper to see if they were skewed. But I wonder if Leo has questioned his. Could he have missed something?

Jesus, these quotes like "Did Leo miss something" are so cringe. Course he missed something, we all miss and gain things according to our perspectives.

[DocWatts]

15 minutes ago, Talinn said:

Yeah spiral dynamics is used too much in this forum.

A good heuristics is: 'don't let your intellectual models do your thinking for you'.

If your metamodels are leading you to deliver canned answers, it's a good indication that it might be time to set them aside.

For what it's worth this just doesn't apply to this Forum, but at one point I was part of a Spiral Dynamics discussion group that contained some very smart people, and I would see this happen all the time.

Edited August 13 by DocWatts

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

To be fair, you did quote him first, several times, actually.

What do you mean?

Me and several others were having a conversation about Elon Musk and Donald Trump biases and dishonesty... and he got onto us about it.

All of my replies came after that.

[Joshe]

4 minutes ago, Talinn said:

Jesus, these quotes like "Did Leo miss something" are so cringe. Course he missed something, we all miss and gain things according to our perspectives.

I'm sorry for being socially inept. 

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Exactly. This perspective transcends stage green's paradigm lock. To call it stage green doesn't make sense to me, which is why I said, jokingly, funny how stage green can see through stage yellow. It’s probably an easy trap to fall into: if you see many stage green people demonizing Musk, and then you see a stage yellow person doing the same, you might mistakenly label them as green—i.e., blinded by bias. I don't think Leo is any less evolved because he calls Trump a devil. He would say he does so consciously. And I say I am doing the same to Musk. 

But all of this is irrelevant. It all comes down to reads. Not spiral dynamics. I give people here the benefit of the doubt that they aren't operating on deep bias. 

We all know where there is deep and common deception, there is deep selfishness and uncommon selflessness.

If I can show evidence that suggests off-the-chart levels of deception, this is antagonistic to the perspective that Musk deeply cares about humanity.

I have questioned my reads and will look deeper to see if they were skewed. But I wonder if Leo has questioned his. Could he have missed something?

Yes, it isn't like dishonesty suddenly becomes honesty when someone shifts from blue to orange... or from green to yellow.

That lies are happening is true on all levels of the spiral.

[Something Funny]

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

What do you mean?

Me and several others were having a conversation about Elon Musk and Donald Trump biases and dishonesty... and he got onto us about it.

All of my replies came after that.

Yes, but upon re-read, it felt to me like Leo just made a general comment, making his own point, and then you asked him to elaborate, even though he didn't really feel like it.

Just my perspective. I didn't catch it when reading your discussion for the first time. I mostly got triggered by Leo shitting on stage green so much

Edited August 13 by Something Funny

[Francis777]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

And as a fellow lover of arguments, debates, and winning... game recognizes game.

Maybe this is why you just cant imagine/accept someone commenting truthfully/objectively on something without thinking its a personal attack on you, because that's all you actually care to do yourself. I mean you literally just openly admitted that with this statement, takes a lot of credibility away from your argument does it not?

Comparing chess to politics is stupid, honest politics is never about winning, chess is, chess is a sport essentially, I don't know why you would use this as an example, unless of course this is the only reason you engage in political debates, is to treat it as such

Its quite clear that learning is not your priority with these conversations.

Edited August 13 by Francis777

[Joshe]

Seems only a few people here are dealing in reality. 

This is a simple matter.

One side strongly claims Elon Musk is driven by a deep concern for humanity. The other side strongly claims that is total bullshit and what seems like concern for humanity is just a self-deception he operates on to serve his own self-interest, not humanity. 

THAT is the argument. One side has read reality wrong. That's all. It can be adjusted if the wrong side wants to let in the truth.

Let's not get lost in our egos and attacks. 

 

[Space]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Something I did was just sit down and watch Musk talk without judging him, really seeing the world from his POV. Dare I say, empathize with him.

If you actually do that you will have an experience very different from all the leftist moralizing.

That would be transcending the Green narrative.

And this doesn't mean I support Musk's politics.

I must say this is precisely what I've been telling people for years. 

I've watched pretty much 90% of all videos of Musk online. I'm not exaggerating. I've been following his efforts since around 2015 before anyone even knew his name. 

Most people who critique Musk today have not even watched a single interview. Let alone all of them. At best a few clips, a few headlines, a few comments from friends and family. 

I appreciate you putting in the effort to understand his worldview.

I've said many times he is flawed and has said and done stupid things. But he is also very down to earth, kind and deeply cares about bettering the world. 

[Something Funny]

4 minutes ago, Francis777 said:

Maybe this is why you just cant imagine/accept someone commenting truthfully/objectively on something without thinking its a personal attack on you, because that's all you actually care to do yourself. I mean you literally just openly admitted that with this statement, takes a lot of credibility away from your argument does it not?

Comparing chess to politics is stupid, honest politics is never about winning, chess is, chess is a sport essentially, I don't know why you would use this as an example, unless of course this is the only reason you engage in political debates, is to treat it as such

Its quite clear that learning is not your priority with these conversations.

Wow, you know her so well. Some nice judgements there.

You, of course, made this comment because learning is your highest priority.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Please stop piling onto this "debate" or commenting about Emerald. Just move on. This is derailing the thread. If you want to debate Elon Musk, start a new thread.

Edited August 13 by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

@Leo Gura sorry

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Please stop piling onto this "debate" or commenting about Emerald. Just move on. This is derailing the thread. If you want to debate Elon Musk, start a new thread.

Boo! That's no fun. Start another debate thread about me. 

Anyway, back to Trump and the election... I guess.

[Francis777]

@Something Funny I was just pointing out on how someone could be so sure of something being a personal attack and then go on to openly admit their own mindset which directly corrupts that assumption.

I'm aware that I do it. Just thought this example was so blatant that I'd point it out.

Edited August 13 by Francis777

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, Space said:

I must say this is precisely what I've been telling people for years. 

I've watched pretty much 90% of all videos of Musk online. I'm not exaggerating. I've been following his efforts since around 2015 before anyone even knew his name. 

Most people who critique Musk today have not even watched a single interview. Let alone all of them. At best a few clips, a few headlines, a few comments from friends and family. 

I appreciate you putting in the effort to understand his worldview.

I've said many times he is flawed and has said and done stupid things. But he is also very down to earth, kind and deeply cares about bettering the world. 

Well, at least you understand.

[Ropuch7]

To anyone that wants to understand Musk's perspective.
An alternative to watching hours of him talk: Elon Musk's biography by Walter Isacsoon.
It shows Musk's perspective quite well without sugarcoating anything.

Interviews are useful for observing a person directly, the way they talk and act in general.
But if you want focused and detailed account of the relevant events that shaped Elon as a person, this is the place to go.

[integral]

What's super counterintuitive is that the reason musk is anti-union is because he truly believes his company provides so much financial security and safety to his employees that he doesn't need unions. It's like he feels like he created a Utopia, hes completely out of touch with reality, but has good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So he's not anti-union because hes a greedy profit hungry lunatic. Someone needs to ask him about removing unions for Walmart or McDonalds. He likely will not support it as he does with his own company.

Edited August 13 by integral

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

Im still waiting for that Trump Elon interview its going to be SO GOOD. 

Waiting? It's already over and it was shit.

[integral]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Waiting? It's already over and it was shit.

😭I guess that's what happens when theres is no interviewer asking real questions.