Trump is going to win the election

[Something Funny]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You just need to be biased, selfish, or unconscious

Exactly. And I don't think it is a surprise that people on a self-actualization forum don't respect biased, selfish, and unconscious people. 

What does it matter if they are original in this or not?

[Nilsi]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Trump is so depraved I don't think he believes he is saving the world. It's all cynical for him. He thinks his supporters are suckers.

Exactly, which is why he’s the ultimate postmodern politician.

If it served his agenda, he’d be championing LGBTQ+ rights and global warming tomorrow without batting an eye.

Calling him „orange“ is absurd; the only orange thing about him is the tone his shitty self-tanner gives him. He doesn’t believe in universal ideals like rationality or liberalism. The only thing he believes in is power, the most slippery and relativistic force there is.

Edited August 13 by Nilsi

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

why do they have to be original if they are still on point?

They are off point.

Green narratives are self-deception.

Edited August 13 by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

@Leo Gura I think you've been very biased and off point yourself in this thread.

For example Emerald, was raising valid questions and asking to give any specific critique of what she said, and your answer was:

"Your mind is stuck at stage green".

When she wasn't even arguing from the stage green pov that much.

Do you think that it was an intellectually honest answer to give? 

To quote you: a chat bot could give a better response.

You tell her and others to go and watch 10 hours of Musk interviews, but couldn't spend 5 minutes to seriously entertain her postion and give a genuine response.

Secondly, you seem to have some serious beef with stage green and be unfairly biased against it.

Whenever it's a stage orange or below perspective, we are supposed to be unbiased and think about it deeply, without judgement.

But when it comes to stage green, it's okay to just dismiss it as moralistic, self-deceptive and cookie-cutter, right?

You seem to forget, that stage green in the next stage of development for all of the 1st world countries. So even though it might not be absolutely true, or the highest perspective ever. It is still more developed than orange and the rest, and is totally appropriate for the situation.

We need more stage green perspectives and policies, not less.

• Environment
• Fair taxation
• More regulations of corporations
• Human rights
• Less corrupt governments

All of those are very relevant right now.

You can talk about how idealistic and stuoid stage green people are, but the fact is that if the maajority of the world would be stage green, we would be in a much better place right now.

Edited August 13 by Something Funny

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Something Funny said:

You tell her and others to go and watch 10 hours of Musk interviews

Yes. This is the real honest answer. Everything else here is just noise.

Edited August 13 by Leo Gura

[Davino]

Imagine what people would say about you if you were in the spotlight 24/7

Green can't even live to its ideals and makes the central epistemic error of all Tier 1, I am right and they are wrong.

It's crucial to have honest understanding of different points of view. My pov may be wrong and that's how I filter everything, I must humble myself with Truth. The change to Tier 2 is an honest appreciation of perspectives, systems and holism.

Edited August 13 by Davino

[JTL]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That has nothing to do with conartistry.

Those are just Musk's polticial biases.

So what? He is allowed to be biased.

You guys need to get over this idea that everyone needs to fit your leftist ideals. No. This is Green self-deception.

@Leo Gura It is sad to see that you dismiss musk's racism so easy. Imagine, if some of the most powerful men in the world where spreading racist bullshit towards you! Musk is fascist collaborator who is trying to mainstream racism.

I know you have called him out in the past, but this just made me sad. 

He was calling for civil war in the uk and some far-right thugs tried to burn down a hotel with migrants inside. So what Musk is saying and doing have real life consequences!! 

Edited August 13 by JTL

[Starlight321]

Everything what leo's desribed happing for the last 3 pages at least is also happening after his comment as well. It's very obvious from a certain state of mind. Maybe you can go back and read it again and look for it and recognise it.

He hasn't even spoken against most of the points written from the people critizising him. We need most of those points but the stage green pov doesn't see that it gets many important things he's which he mentioned distorted and lacks the nuances. I think this underscores the importance to learn how pov and worldviews work, especially one's own or misundersrandings can happen between people and it can look like it is reality itself.

When telling the truth all stages get things accurate and some things distorted. Whenever something truthful to one pov or stage is mentioned by leo or anybody people agree and think he or anybody else is on his/her side but if things that are true but contradicting to one's lense/ pov are pointed out then he seems suddenly to switch sides and is against you and biased and inconsistent. This mechanism pointed out is the same as in all other stages below but the content is more refined and the same mistake musk makes as well.

This also happened in the israel threads and everywhere else and it's quite disturbing to see because it means that we are all full of shit, myself most and foremost and I'm asking myself how on earth can one clean that all up and rise beyond it.

However thank you all. It's important to learn and try and to realise this. 

Edited August 13 by Starlight321

[Terell Kirby]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Green narratives are self-deception.

Seems like one of Green’s crocodiles is a form of blind moralization of certain ideals of lower stages, specifically on the political front. I’m interpreting your stance is advocating for the intellectual position that we not so much define a public figure (or anyone for that matter) based on their political ideology wholesale, we should also take in their net contribution to society in other areas (being technological innovation, success/work ethic of Musk). I would agree with this .. but it’s hard for many Greens in this polarized climate. I’m learning that nuance helps us avoid many crocodiles.

Edited August 13 by Terell Kirby

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, JTL said:

It is sad to see that you dismiss musk's racism so easy. Imagine, if some of the most powerful men in the world where spreading racist bullshit towards you!

There you go again, doubling down on the Green.

Come on guys, I expect you to see through Green and yet you're still mired in it.

Edited August 13 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald Your mind is stuck in that Green moralistic narrative.

If you are unable to rebut my points, then just be honest and concede.

I haven't said anything particularly stage green in my messages on this thread.

I was merely pointing out concrete instances of Elon Musk's dishonesty because that is the topic we're ACTUALLY debating about.

But you know that you agree with me on the topic we're actually debating... and you don't want to lose the debate because you already made a big show of grand standing about Spiral Dynamics. 

So you keep moving the goal posts from the debate about Elon Musk's level of honesty... to what my level of Spiral Dynamics is and how I don't recognize Elon Musk's contributions because I'm stage green. 

But that is NOT what you and I were debating about in the first place. That's just you interjecting your opinion on Musk into the debate and moving the debate to a topic where you feel like you have a fighting chance of winning.

We were debating "Is Elon Musk honest?" but you keep moving the goal post to the topic "Is Elon Musk good/admirable?"

Stay on the topic, be intellectually honest, and concede that you agree with me about that debate topic at hand... instead of pretending my argument is something that it isn't.

I conceded to you that con-artist isn't an apt term for him. But he does have dishonest tendencies as is evidenced.

Do you disagree with the specific points that I listed in my previous posts that those are instances of dishonesty? Would you characterize Elon Musk as an honest person?

 

[Leo Gura]

@Emerald I am not going to engage with you on content debates.

I pointed out a meta issue, which you are uninterested in handling.

So that's the end.

[Something Funny]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald I am not going to engage with you on content debates.

I pointed out a meta issue, which you are uninterested in handling.

So that's the end.

Can you at least point out what's so stage green about what she said? What are the excesses of stage green in this case?

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald I am not going to engage with you on content debates.

I pointed out a meta issue, which you are uninterested in handling.

So that's the end.

First off, that's not what the debate was about. You moved the goal posts to your supposed "meta issue" without even mentioning what the meta issue is. At this current time, I don't even know what you personally think about Elon Musk.

What is the meta-issue that you're pointing out?  You haven't even given me what your position is and you refuse.

How am I even supposed to take you seriously right now?

You just called me stage green and told me to watch interviews.

And yet, you're pretending to be the teacher and the intellectual powerhouse in this that can grandstand on empty ad-hominem arguments and tell me that my perspective is insufficient... somehow.

Don't play teacher with me. Regarding this thread, your sense of intellectual superiority over myself and others is unearned.

[Emerald]

24 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Can you at least point out what's so stage green about what she said? What are the excesses of stage green in this case?

There's nothing particularly stage green about what I said because I'm just stating facts about what Elon Musk has done, and I'm sure that Leo knows that by now.

He also seems to think that those in Yellow or Turquoise would ignore ethics as a heuristic of discernment.

But in actuality, it just shifts the perspective to one that is more compassionate where you can orient to the symptom-level behavior through the lens of ethics and justice... but view the root-level origins of the behavior through the morally neutral lens of compassion, unconditional love, and deep accurate understanding.

He just had the knee-jerk reaction and stepped into the "you're stage green" argument two feet first... and has to pretend it's the case now to avoid losing the argument.  

Edited August 13 by Emerald

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You just called me stage green and told me to watch interviews.

Yes, that's the meta issue.

I merely suggested that you watch some videos with an open mind. You refused. So there is nothing more to do here.

Edited August 13 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Yes, that's the meta issue.

I am not trying to "own" you or anything.

I merely suggested that you watch some video with an open mind.

You "merely suggested" did you? 

[Joshe]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But in actuality, it just shifts the perspective to one that is more compassionate where you can orient to the symptom-level behavior through the lens of ethics and justice... but view the root-level origins of the behavior through the morally neutral lens of compassion, unconditional love, and deep accurate understanding.

I've noticed this tactic as well. Strange how stage green can see through stage yellow! 

[Something Funny]

@Leo Gura if I can give some unasked for feedback, I wish you brought that up in a gentler way. You did sound kind of harsh and dismissive.

And "you are stuck at stage green" can sound like an unfair personal attack, especially if a person thinks that it's not true.

[Starlight321]

27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There's nothing particularly stage green about what I said because I'm just stating facts about what Elon Musk has done, and I'm sure that Leo knows that by now.

He also seems to think that those in Yellow or Turquoise would ignore ethics as a heuristic of discernment.

But in actuality, it just shifts the perspective to one that is more compassionate where you can orient to the symptom-level behavior through the lens of ethics and justice... but view the root-level origins of the behavior through the morally neutral lens of compassion, unconditional love, and deep accurate understanding.

He just had the knee-jerk reaction and stepped into the "you're stage green" argument two feet first... and has to pretend it's the case now to avoid losing the argument.  

He did, but that and honesty and not playing games looks to stage green like blue or orange or even red. He isn't even interested in debates or winning those because it's futile.

Edited August 13 by Starlight321