The rolling of the spiritual snowball

[stephenkettley]

 

I have started the journey of building spiritual practices. I have been meditating for nearly 6 months everyday, as well as doing concentration every day with my meditation, also for nearly 6 months. I have also been slowly building strong determination and mindfulness with labelling over the weeks. I have also been taking psychedelics maybe twice a year for a few years. I am not in any rush but rather curious, at what point does the spiritual snowball really start rolling where one has proper mystical experiences and glimpses of enlightenment (seeing the tail of the ox...)??

How long did everyone get deep into the practices before starting to see life altering results?

 

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, stephenkettley said:

How long did everyone get deep into the practices before starting to see life altering results?

Facing fear and suffering consciously is what yields results. 

[Breakingthewall]

Desire to open, to remove obstacles, fear, sadness, narcissism, all the chains. Desire to be free, all time. Then you do what is necessary. 

Time, let's see 2 years but depending of the person. At first it's shit, the mind is confusion, full of fear, identification, dense. A hell. Then you start with the hammer. Destruction, forge. The chains are unbearable, better be dead. 5meo, meditation many hours, stopping any entertainment, any toxic activities, cleaning, purifying. And the thing starts to move

Edited June 19 by Breakingthewall

[Ishanga]

3 hours ago, stephenkettley said:

 

I have started the journey of building spiritual practices. I have been meditating for nearly 6 months everyday, as well as doing concentration every day with my meditation, also for nearly 6 months. I have also been slowly building strong determination and mindfulness with labelling over the weeks. I have also been taking psychedelics maybe twice a year for a few years. I am not in any rush but rather curious, at what point does the spiritual snowball really start rolling where one has proper mystical experiences and glimpses of enlightenment (seeing the tail of the ox...)??

How long did everyone get deep into the practices before starting to see life altering results?

 

About 2 weeks, after I started practicing Shambhavi Mahamudra from Sadhguru's Inner Engineering Course, I was smiling and happy for no reason, ppl at my work place, which was a shit hole I worked security at, kept on asking me why I was smiling so much lol.. Peace or Joy naturally arising like this is the stable ground upon which real Seeking can happen, if your emotionally unbalanced, unstable mentally and stressed out, proper Spiritual seeking will never happen, only when those things are stable does the Awareness really start to open up... Pain will happen in life, we break a leg, lose a loved one, other such events happen, it happens to everyone, its how we Respond to Life Situations that allows us to go thru life basically Untouched, then Your able to reach the Potential that is in all of Us, and that is why we are here to explore this potential, but it doesn't happen unless Your stable...

[Evan Gill]

48 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

About 2 weeks, after I started practicing Shambhavi Mahamudra from Sadhguru's Inner Engineering Course, I was smiling and happy for no reason, ppl at my work place, which was a shit hole I worked security at, kept on asking me why I was smiling so much lol.. Peace or Joy naturally arising like this is the stable ground upon which real Seeking can happen, if your emotionally unbalanced, unstable mentally and stressed out, proper Spiritual seeking will never happen, only when those things are stable does the Awareness really start to open up... Pain will happen in life, we break a leg, lose a loved one, other such events happen, it happens to everyone, its how we Respond to Life Situations that allows us to go thru life basically Untouched, then Your able to reach the Potential that is in all of Us, and that is why we are here to explore this potential, but it doesn't happen unless Your stable...

@Ishanga I am curious, how would you describe the practice of Shambhavi Mahamudra ?

I looked online but am interested in hearing your perspective.

[Leo Gura]

@stephenkettley It's impossibile to say. 

Could be tomorrow or you could spend 20 years doing it and never reach enlightenment. And enlightenment would just be the tip of understanding Consciousness.

But if you're doing psychedelics you should have already had some mystical, nondual experiences. What are you experiencing there?

If you wish to reach enlightenment through manual practice you really need to do week-long hardcore mode retreats. Breakthroughs in consciousness require insane levels of focus. Every time you break focus you lose all your momentum and must start from scratch.

Realistically to generate a manual mystical experience requires 100 hours of intense consistent focus. That's one week-long retreat's worth of meditation. To do it faster would require spiritual talents, which most people do not have.

Edited June 20 by Leo Gura

[stephenkettley]

@Leo Gura This makes a lot of sense.

In terms of the psychedelics, I have mostly involved myself intentionally in psilocybin. I definitely have had some interesting experiences of becoming far more conscious of the profundity and mysterious nature of the reality in front of me. During one of my trips, I definitely came close to being conscious of the fact that "Of course! It's me! This is my dream!". So I probably have had some slight mystical experiences.
Recently, I have been trying to combine psychedelics in conjunction with life purpose as I am struggling in this area at the moment.

I am hoping that as I build up my spiritual practices daily over the next few years that it will start to feed my journey more and more as I move through discovering life purpose, studying deeper epistemology and then on to deep consciousness and enlightenment work for the remainder of life.

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you wish to reach enlightenment through manual practice you really need to do week-long hardcore mode retreats. Breakthroughs in consciousness require insane levels of focus

That wasn't my experience, although it took many years. When using an infficient purely concentration based meditation system it is probably like that that one needs weeklong hardcore mode retreats. And probably few people can do these.

Using an efficient meditation-system, meditation can be taken into daily life quite early. But to be honest, the only system I am aware of that can do that with any kind of efficiency is Mahamudra (with Dzogchen on the advanced stages). Which is no surprise in my perspective, because the "R&D" that went into that system over a millenia of unbroken practice lines in Tibet is pretty unique. Practitioners reaching Enlightenment, writing commentaries about it, several parallel lines of further developing the system and cross-polienating and so on.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Realistically to generate a manual mystical experience requires 100 hours of intense consistent focus. That's one week-long retreat's worth of meditation. To do it faster would require spiritual talents, which most people do not have.

Yes to the 100s and 1000s of hours, but in my experience no to the week-long retreats. For sure that helps, but I in my experience it is not necessary.

It took me over 10 years to get to something like a nondual state (probably in large because I didn't get the techniques in the beginning correctly), and I consider myself neither spiritually gifted nor ungifted.

 

[Leo Gura]

@Water by the River If your situation was generally true then millions more mediators would be awake and they obviously aren't, so what you say cannot be generally true.

The average meditator will not get your results.

The #1 reason people do not get awakenings is because no one is willing to invest 100hrs straight into meditation.

There is good reason why Buddha sat for 3 weeks under a tree. He couldn't do it otherwise.

Edited June 20 by Leo Gura

[Davino]

@stephenkettley I would say that it boils down to your will or desire.

How badly do you want to Awaken?

The percentage of the committment will yield it's results for your given case.

Regarding psychedelics, go to 5-MeO-Malt and 5-MeO-DMT. Those are the most consistent tools for Awakening. A 20mg of 5meo will give you a good spiritual experience that you will be able to translate in your daily practice. As you now are able to orient yourself inside the practice for higher consciousness.

In my case, daily practice is for baseline consciousness and Psychedelics are for peak consciousness. Both have their role that the other cannot substitute.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Davino said:

How badly do you want to Awaken?

Of course that's important.

But furthermore, you may want to awaken but still be too immature and not ready to accept it when the moment comes.

You have to be willing to really surrender your human self and life. That can take years just to reconcile yourself to. You may just not want to go through with it even though you want it theoretically.

Edited June 20 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River If your situation was generally true then millions more mediators would be awake and they obviously aren't, so what you say cannot be generally true.

But millions don't practice Mahamudra. Never have. There are not many who practice under a competent teacher with good guidance material and a certain level of discipline & Karma. Also not in Tibet, which had a few million max-population in historical times. 

You would maybe be surprised what I would tell you in private on my perception of efficiency & sophistication of for example Zen or Theravada compared to Mahamudra.

My bet is: The propagation of these efficient teachings (Mahamudra/Dzogchen and especially their translation in formats westerners can use) + psychedelics available + good & efficient teachers and teaching material available + billions of people potentially having access to that will yield some success rates during this century that have not been the case historically, and that will be quite a show.

Just curious: Have you ever looked into the chapters Contemplation, Skill of Reckognition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation in Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown? I am sure if you dive into that with an open mind and a week of time, you will find it similarly fascinating as I did. It is hard to get it reading it once, I had to read it many times over several years while the practice progressed - but it is still fascinating.

 

[Leo Gura]

Could there be some special techniques which are extra potent? Sure. But I would be skeptical about how well that would scale up.

I have not read those texts you mention.

You gotta ask yourself, is it worth a 10 year gamble? Obviously that's a personal question.

Edited June 20 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Could there be some special techniques which are extra potent? Sure. But I would be skeptical about how well that would scale up.

I don't think it will scale up to anything like 1% of humanity anytime soon. But imagine a few thousand having walked & realized the Mahamudra/Dzogchen path without superhuman will-power and even more, having found the path more or less enjoyable, and testifying their liberation and bliss on Youtube?

That will trigger some more waves then. And maybe in 100-200 years we will get genetic engineering and brain-mind-interface technology and other stuff doing largely the job, so that not much practice at all will be required? Who knows?

I agree with you that mainly "brute force" meditation concentration technique (like Zen/Theravada/most of what is on the market place) will never really scale, because it just needs hardcore will-power individuals of which there are only so many. Or rather, very very few Ralstons & Frank Yangs & Ingrams who can pull that off.

And then these few thousand liberated folks can go exploring the magnificent multiverse/realms/aliens/consciousness with psychedelics, just for the joy and wonder of it all... 

 

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You gotta ask yourself, is it worth a 10 year gamble? Obviously that's a personal question.

Psychedelics to see that "it" is real, and then the 10 year gamble. Which I assume isn't so much a gamble if supported by psychedelics and the right techniques like Mahamudra to balance these states sobre in daily life.

Lets see, interesting times to live in...

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

But imagine a few thousand having walked & realized the Mahamudra/Dzogchen path without superhuman will-power and even more, having found the path more or less enjoyable, and testifying their liberation and bliss on Youtube?

If that actually worked, sure would be great. But it is unwise to count your chickens before they hatch.

Quote

Psychedelics to see that "it" is real, and then the 10 year gamble. Which I assume isn't so much a gamble if supported by psychedelics and the right techniques like Mahamudra to balance these states sobre in daily life.

It's a gamble relative to just doing a month-long retreat and breaking through the wall with intense momentum.

There is no gaurantee that bits of daily practice will be enough to reach the necessary critical mass.

I would bet that it won't be enough for most people. Which is why retreats were invented.

Why wait 10 years if you can just crank it out in a month? 10 years is quite inefficient by comparison.

Edited June 20 by Leo Gura

[An young being]

Nothing comes without effort, especially something like enlightenment. Sure, you may be able to experience awakening with shortcuts or with the help of genes, but it's similar to masturbation. 

Awakening through shortcuts may be life changing for those suffering a lot, but it might turn out to be a negative experience for those bound by egoistic tendencies. If you really have a strong curiosity for the unknown, you will automatically work hard to reach it, by atleast striving to reduce egoistic characters. Religions provide a lot of guidance in reducing such egoistic characters. While the end result through hard work and shortcuts may be the same, the effects won't last forever or had repercussions, as karma won't let you get anything for free.

[bambi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Could there be some special techniques which are extra potent? Sure. But I would be skeptical about how well that would scale up.

I have not read those texts you mention.

You gotta ask yourself, is it worth a 10 year gamble? Obviously that's a personal question.

Did you ever reach abiding non-dual awareness in your sober state? Or only via pscyhedelics

[bambi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If that actually worked, sure would be great. But it is unwise to count your chickens before they hatch.

It's a gamble relative to just doing a month-long retreat and breaking through the wall with intense momentum.

There is no gaurantee that bits of daily practice will be enough to reach the necessary critical mass.

I would bet that it won't be enough for most people. Which is why retreats were invented.

Why wait 10 years if you can just crank it out in a month? 10 years is quite inefficient by comparison.

I cant tell if you water and others are talking about the same phenomenon, are you talking about using psychedelics to expedite locking in an abiding non dual state in every day life?

[An young being]

1 hour ago, An young being said:

Nothing comes without effort, especially something like enlightenment. Sure, you may be able to experience awakening with shortcuts or with the help of genes, but it's similar to masturbation. 

Awakening through shortcuts may be life changing for those suffering a lot, but it might turn out to be a negative experience for those bound by egoistic tendencies. If you really have a strong curiosity for the unknown, you will automatically work hard to reach it, by atleast striving to reduce egoistic characters. Religions provide a lot of guidance in reducing such egoistic characters. While the end result through hard work and shortcuts may be the same, the effects won't last forever or had repercussions, as karma won't let you get anything for free.

The shortcuts include not only psychedelics, but also practices that promise you quick and easy enlightenment, including some meditative techniques.

[Davino]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You may want to awaken but still be too immature and not ready to accept it when the moment comes.

If you want it that bad, then you will become mature and design your life arround it.

I remember you once said something among the lines: Saying that you want something, that you truly desire something, means to actually DO all the work it takes to accomplish it. Otherwise, you are not allowed to dream.

I reflect on it many times. If someone really wants the highest Awakenings, it will arrange its own life and self to make it happen. Does it sound familiar?

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have to be willing to really surrender your human self and life. That can take years just to reconcile yourself to. You may just not want to go through with it even though you want it theoretically.

It's true that maybe one doesn't know what such desire implies and what it takes to bring it to full fruition.

But I still think it boils down to: How badly do I want to Awaken?

I really want it very badly. And I write this with tears in my eyes. It's the only thing that I find meaningful in my life.

This of course, changes from person to person and I think it's at the Heart of getting results in Awakening. How badly do I want to God-Realize? That determines everything else and I'm even unsure if such desire is chosen. It can be nurtured that for sure, but seeding it so deep, maybe that is a given.

Edited June 20 by Davino