Stage orange over stage blue?

[Ross]

I really don’t get how stage orange can be over stage blue, given that stage orange produces a huge list of problems in which stage blues issues were not as extensive. It makes it seem that a stage blue place is better to live in. 
 

Also, if stage blue was a progress from stage red in which religion was the unifying and civilising force, how come stage orange is higher, even when religion is removed, shouldn’t it just go back to stage red, as stage orange seems more animalistic? 
 

 

[zazen]

I wrote about this in another thread so will share my comment. I’m not 100% sure my reasoning is iron clad.

On 02/06/2024 at 7:38 AM, zazen said:

While the extreme end of stage orange wrecks the world with capitalist greed, it at least attempts to create a world in the process, driven by autonomy and innovation, even as it’s on a path to ruin. Stage blue doesn’t destroy the world, but it doesn’t create it either. Stage blue doesn’t sell its soul for the material, but isn’t connected to the material world the soul came to experience either.

Stage blue ethnocentric fundamentalists think they’re creating a better world, when they’re really building one on exclusion—anyone who doesn’t fit their rigid mold of caste, color, or creed is left out. They think they’re superior to orange because they orient around something “transcendental” rather than the trivial material world. But they haven’t moved past the surface of their tribe’s skin color or been able to capture the essence of their scripture.

They believe they can change the world in God’s image, but they’re not even part of the world they want to change. They stay isolated in their anti-materialist communities and rural homesteads and think they’re building culture or gaining power and leverage when power and leverage isn’t built in isolation from the world but when engaged in it.

Stage blue stifles the soul, while stage orange disconnects you from it as you chase the material. But at least in moving, you might eventually find your way back to the soul through and out of the material onto the other side to stage green.

 

On 02/06/2024 at 8:31 AM, zazen said:

Stage blue thinks their God conscious but are only conscious of the humanised commandments they projected and imposed upon a Godly reality infused with God.

They rightly have an intuition of God consciousness but are incapable of going the full way in articulating or encapsulating the truth of God consciousness without creating half truths laced with falsity. 

The question of the future isn’t whether one believes in God or not but how they believe in God. As a being imposed upon reality with commandments projected by the King archetype from the human subconscious - where God is claimed to not be human but is humanised nevertheless to cope with the immensity and complexity of reality.

Or God as a being infused within reality, an essence permeating all and externalising itself in all forms but that is not external to any form big or small. Where God is witnessed as an inherent quality of the universe rather than an external entity imposing himself on the universe from afar.

In stage green we return to the soul by valuing empathy and interconnectedness. The shadow of green is when it becomes utopian by ignoring the reality of form - that inherent differences exist with inherent inequalities we’d like to equalise but that we go about equalising in a tyrannical or dysfunctional way. 

Stage green stifles innovation like blue - but in a different way. Blue isn’t open to change, green wants change but wants to change reality to what it can’t be or won’t accommodate.

 

Edited June 15 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@Ross Idealy every stage keeps the healthy principles of the perior stages in his mind, but in reality what often happens is transcend include and forget.

The result of this is shortcuted, intoxicated versions of all the tear one stages what we can see clearer than ever in Blue Orange and Green these days.

Whenever the integration goes smoothly you will necessarily see an improvement up the spiral, unfortunately though this is the minority of cases from what I have personally impressed.

Before one starts to conquer stage Yellow, healing and fixing is mostly blocked for most of us, honestly.

Edited June 16 by Nivsch

[slimper]

@Ross You're confusing the word progress with the word better. Stage orange isn't better than blue, it's different. It's rejecting blue values and replacing them with new individualistic ones.

Real-life examples of how blue vs orange acts given that they're in the similar life situation:

JOB: Stage blue will keep their head low and keep working a dead-end job for the rest of their lives. Stage orange will seek a new job every few years and earn more money each time.

MEDICAL ISSUE: Stage blue will dip into their life savings and sacrifice their retirement funds to survive, or they will choose to die instead of spending money on survival. Stage orange will have enough money to save themselves, their family, their loved ones.

WAR: Stage blue will march to where their leader is pointing at, most likely dying in the process. Stage orange will escape the country if there's a chance they have to go to war.

POLITICS: Stage blue will attach themselves to a leader that represents their hatred. Stage orange will attach themselves to a leader that represents the ability to make more money.

SPIRITUALITY: Stage blue will find beauty in praise, suffering, tradition, community. Stage orange will find beauty in seeing the world, trying new and different experiences, sex, success, materialism.

Edited June 16 by slimper

[Rafael Thundercat]

On 15/06/2024 at 9:22 AM, zazen said:

They believe they can change the world in God’s image, but they’re not even part of the world they want to change. They stay isolated in their anti-materialist communities and rural homesteads and think they’re building culture or gaining power and leverage when power and leverage isn’t built in isolation from the world but when engaged in it.

Mormons seems like very Materialistic People to me. Did you see their Temples and Conference Hall in Utah? And what about many Mega Churches ?? Very Greedy Chrsitians and actually there are a lot of Stage Orange people that are Fundamentalists. for Example again in Utah there is a lot of Multi Level Marketing Companies. Being a Fundamentalists dont cut you out from Capitalism, since most Religoius People serve two Gods, the God in Heaven and the God in the Bank " I God we Trust " gottcha.

[Rafael Thundercat]

1 hour ago, slimper said:

the similar life situation:

Include Spectrums inside this categorization. Again, what about the Rich Evangelical member, what about the Stage Orange Miserable Entrepreour, and what about the mix of Both? Both Blue and Orange see the Earth as "Something" to be used for Survival. Blue see Earth as a gift from God to be used by them "Sons of God" and Orange see Earth as " Something" to Maximize Profit, buy Houses, Woman etc.. Both have the same Reductionist view of what is the Planet. In a Very Integrated Green we have people who see Earth as a Superorganism Alive and they as Sons of this Earth in Fusion with It, and in work to collaborate with it, and at same time being aware that there will be people who see All diferent, so green will be more Tolerant but this Tolerance can go to the limit that Green dont see that Tolerating the Destruction of the Planet by Ignorant people they are not actually being so Pro-Eath as they think. Gree would be a sort of Navyy from Avatar Movie, with exception that many Green people came from Capitalistic life-styles, I know some hippies that worked 20 years in Companies like Facebook and similar and them got all the money and moved to a Land where they now try to live more Permaculturaly while they still get money from Online Work and Courses. 

When we talk about Survival is never black and white, and there is not full inocent people

 

[Gennadiy1981]

I may go off the topic but there was something Leo said that I had hard time accepting it. Leo said that politically stage Green is better than stage orange/blue, basically republicans vs democrats. Honestly to me it is two sides of one coin. Let’s take a radical regressive, look they make fights on college campuses or act very violent on demonstrations against police while those on conservative side are more lax when it comes to rallies. Again I know there are radicals on both sides, but I guess my question is are the stage green truly democrats? Are you saying Antifa is better than Red Necks or Neo Nazi? I have hard time accepting such.

@slimper made a good point it’s not about progress but being better. And that would work with every stage, so going to progressive it’s not about being radicalized about social idea but maybe opening mind of more inclusive individuals or for accepting others. Like I don’t think keep pushing transgender ideas on everyone is a stage green, but accepting transgender and treating them as equal is. But then antifa and neo nazi are really two sides of one coin, for which Leo have very hard time agreeing and he keep mentioning many times otherwise.

[Leo Gura]

It is a function of cognitive complexity and perspective-taking. Blue is less cognitively complex and less able to take more perspectives. Blue is really locked into an absolutist worldview while Orange can handle multiplicity of perspectives. That's what makes it more advanced.

It takes some sophisticated thinking to see that a government should not merely favor your religion, but allow for everyone to worship equally according to their needs.

Blue is fundamentalist religion and theocracy.

Orange is scientific method and democracy.

Science is more advanced than fundamentalist religion.

Orange realizes that you don't need dogma to be moral. You can be moral through secular humanist values. In fact, it is impossible to be truly moral via dogma.

Edited June 16 by Leo Gura

[Davino]

@Leo Gura That was surgically precise

[Nivsch]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is a function of cognitive complexity and perspective-taking. Blue is less cognitively complex and less able to take more perspectives. Blue is really locked into an absolutist worldview while Orange can handle multiplicity of perspectives. That's what makes it more advanced.

It takes some sophisticated thinking to see that a government should not merely favor your religion, but allow for everyone to worship equally according to their needs.

Blue is fundamentalist religion and theocracy.

Orange is scientific method and democracy.

Science is more advanced than fundamentalist religion.

Orange realizes that you don't need dogma to be moral. You can be moral through secular humanist values. In fact, it is impossible to be truly moral via dogma.

Sometimes stage blue seems to me more harmonious and better to mental health at least in average in comparison to orange. I don't know if this is true but that is my feeling from my personal experience.

And when you see the problems of orange I don't know if they are less harsh than those of blue.

I understand development may, by certain perspectives, be measured not by happines but by complexity alone. But at least for me, without more happiness/fulfillment what is the point of going up at all?

Though I suspect that from Yellow and above one necessarily starts to see dividents in the form of mental health and happiness too anyway. But before that, I am not sure.

Edited June 16 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

David Hume or Charles Darwin are great examples of the intelligence of Orange relative to Blue.

Be careful not to caricture Orange as merely some greedy guy on Wall Street sorting cocaine off a stripper's tits. That is not a deep understanding of Orange.

Go read some David Hume or Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin.

Edited June 16 by Leo Gura

[aurum]

@Ross in addition to some of the points that have been made, I think you may be underestimating how bad Blue can get and all the benefits of Orange.

Consider that most totalitarian regimes involve a strong amount of Blue. And that really it was Orange that rebelled away from these kind of top down structures, as well as brought in industrialism and modern science.

[Butters]

Stage Orange is fantastic, here's an example: 

Michael Jordan's partnership with Nike in the mid-1980s was groundbreaking. At the time, there were doubts within Nike about whether an African American athlete could achieve mainstream appeal. However, Jordan's charisma, talent, and undeniable marketability shattered those perceptions. His Air Jordan sneakers became a cultural phenomenon, defying expectations and generating enormous revenue for Nike. Jordan's success not only revolutionized sports marketing but also reshaped the way athletes and brands interacted, setting a new standard for endorsements and brand partnerships.

Try that in stage Blue, it's impossible, there would be almost no social mobility. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Sometimes stage blue seems to me more harmonious and better to mental health at least in average in comparison to orange. I don't know if this is true but that is my feeling from my personal experience.

I was a Mormon, and I will tell you, those days I was peacefull, peacefull as a SHEEP. Why, because there was no need to make deep questions or to observe the interconnected complexity of things or in how many ways I was Bias and Wrong and Moralistic and Separatist, thinking I had the truth and others were just deluded Fools. So In sense I easy, and Lazy, to be a Fundamentalist. Because you dont need to Contemplate deeply, you just Read some scriptures, visit the church and other activities and live your life. No need to worry about Awakening, since I did even considered that I was stuck in a Dogmatic Paradigm and Happy as a Sheep. 

But deep down I knew there was more to life than the confort of Belief..

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Why oh Why oh why is SDi BLUE vmeme so popular even today given all of humanity's advancements, rise in living standards, etc...

Why is THIS so popular for so many people?

btw, the videos above depict,'Haj', the annual Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca. 

 

Its just... Why don't BLUE people do some philosophy and question why do they believe what they do. Sure, there are BLUE philosophers, but thats not what I'm talking about. I've asked regular people about their beliefs, and almost no one seriously questions it, they just sort of absorb it from their culture. 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

If the authors of the American constitution were Orange, and we’re trying to get society towards Green, then is the U.S. constitution outdated?

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Why oh Why oh why is SDi BLUE vmeme so popular even today given all of humanity's advancements, rise in living standards, etc...

Those people have not seen a rise in living standards. They have mostly been exploited for cheap labor.

Your living standards are built on the backs of those people.

Edited June 16 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

is the U.S. constitution outdated?

Of course it is.

[Dabidoe]

@Ross Freedom vs. Stability.

How is stage blue better? Would scientists, authors, great thinkers be able to challenge the status quo standing before trial like so many "stage orange and beyond" thinkers faced against the stage blue religious nuts?

All stages have merit, but the point is you can't access a stage above yours. So a stage orange person can be extremely moral because they've maintained the stage blue part of themselves while still embrace being open minded in the stage orange. 

Stages orange or red aren't "bad." A purely stage red society is surely a lot shittier to live in, but that isn't the same as the entire stage being bad. There's a reason every functioning democracy has a military for stage red and some sort of organized religion for stage blue. 

What makes societies "bad" is what side of the coin of said stage they're in, every stage has it's upsides and downsides. A functioning healthy stage orange capitalistic society where freedom of expression and fair treatment of working class is fine but a chrony capitalism, corrupt government is not.

Edited June 17 by Dabidoe

[Yousif]

On 6/16/2024 at 11:43 AM, Nivsch said:

Sometimes stage blue seems to me more harmonious and better to mental health at least in average in comparison to orange. I don't know if this is true but that is my feeling from my personal experience.

I see your point, maybe that’s because stage orange is relatively a new emergence at a global scale and it’s not all encompassing like blue is, if we’re talking globally, stage orange is being heavily resisted by many blue countries and that collision with blue from below, green and higher from above may make it seem worse than it’s prior stages, orange is the current center of gravity, all that pressure is making it lash out and behave neurotically.