Very strong argument consciousness is independent of the brain

[emil1234]

all organic matter or even all physicality are bound by one unifying property; change or decay.

notice how your body is changing literally every second. you may lose a couple of hairs, your skin cells are getting replaced, stuff like that. NOTHING in physical reality is unchanging, change is a law of physical existence.

Notice that your senses have decayed during your life time. Your sight might have gotten worse, maybe you use glasses by now. Your hearing may have gotten worse, likewise with your taste. 

but your consciousness IS EXCACTLY THE SAME as it has always been. it hasnt decayed one fucking bit. 

I honestly think this is an extremely strong indication that consciousness is transcendent of physicality

Edited June 14 by emil1234

[Sugarcoat]

Argument against this could be that your consciousness is dependent on your brain, nervous system being a certain way and that it has been this specific way for as long as you’ve been conscious. Yes your body brain has changed yes maybe each cell has been replaced but the way it happens in the brain and body happens in such manner that what is needed for your consciousness to stay constant has been constant enough . If that makes sense, so despite the change

a comparison could be , idk if this is a good one, how come your skin is the same color despite the fact every cell is replaced, is the color independent of the change, no , because the way the change happens is so that the color remains constant  , so the color is dependent on the skin 

Edited June 14 by Sugarcoat

[emil1234]

@Sugarcoat i reject this, it doesnt account for why consciousness doesnt decay.

you could apply the same logic to the senses. your brain constantly replaces cells and that stuff, yes, to maintain the sensory functions such as hearing or sight. you could argue the neurons responsible for your hearing has been excactly the same your entire life, however even so,your hearing is still subject to decay, just like your skin cells are, they are decaying and being replaced all the time, and when you get older, your skin might start to get wrinkles

consciousness has 0 decay and 0 change

Edited June 14 by emil1234

[Sugarcoat]

10 minutes ago, emil1234 said:

@Sugarcoat i reject this, it doesnt account for why consciousness doesnt decay.

you could apply the same logic to the senses. your brain constantly replaces cells and that stuff, yes, to maintain the sensory functions such as hearing or sight. however even so, the sense organs are still subject to decay, just like your skin cells are, they are decaying and being replaced all the time, and when you get older, your skin might start to get wrinkles

consciousness has 0 decay and 0 change

I get what you mean. Then the question becomes what is consciousness even? Because we can talk about all kinds of change, in the senses as you mention, sight and hearing getting worse. But we can’t talk about how consciousness could change if we don’t know what it is even, it’s a mystery. If it’s nothing then it can’t change. But if you damage the brain your entire perception of reality could change, but you’re still conscious so that hasn’t changed. If you damage it enough you will die and loose consciousness, or fall into coma, making it seem the consciousness is dependent on physicality but then  there are reports of people leaving the body as the consciousness upon death, so once again it seeming independent. So who knows 
 

 

Edited June 14 by Sugarcoat

[Princess Arabia]

18 minutes ago, emil1234 said:

but your consciousness IS EXCACTLY THE SAME as it has always been

I thought there are claims being made of low-consciousness, high consciousness, levels and states of consciousness. How is that not change.

What remains is the "space" in which everything appears, including the one that claims to be conscious. The I AM, consciousness and awareness. Those are all changing and is not what is. What is, is unknowable, alive and is in everything. It's all there is on the "real" scale. Everything else are appearances that are seemingly occurring through space and time which are also just appearances. Consciousness is within the dream. It's dualistic which isn't really happening, only appearing to be. So is awareness. It takes a subject and an object of which, existentially, they are the same and cannot be separated but only in the dream. There's noone to be conscious or aware of anything in the Absolute sense. 

Edited June 14 by Princess Arabia

[emil1234]

@Princess Arabia i dont resonate with the idea of "low" or "high" consciousness. i think what people mean by this is level of comprehension, understanding and involvement with existence. what i mean by consciousness is simply the fact that existence is. and that fact has never changed, i dont claim there is anyone who claim to be conscious, im saying existence is. it doesnt need an owner. 

im curious whats your definition of consciousness? 

6 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

What is, is unknowable, alive and is in everything. It's all there is on the "real" scale. 

because this is pretty much mine. 

@Sugarcoat pretty much answered ur question here as well

Edited June 14 by emil1234

[Leo Gura]

You are correct in that qualia itself cannot decay. But your level or state of consciousness, and how conscious you are, can decay.

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, emil1234 said:

@Princess Arabia i dont resonate with the idea of "low" or "high" consciousness. i think what people mean by this is level of comprehension, understanding and involvement with existence. what i mean by consciousness is simply the fact that existence is. and that fact has never changed, i dont claim there is anyone who claim to be conscious, im saying existence is. it doesnt need an owner. 

im curious whats your definition of consciousness? 

because this is pretty much mine. 

@Sugarcoat pretty much answered ur question here as well

Sometimes it's all a matter of words. If what I stated is your definition also, then I call it the Absolute. It's indefinable and indescribable but somehow attempts at doing so for communication purposes will do. If that's what you're referring to, then yes, it doesn't change. 

[Sugarcoat]

15 minutes ago, emil1234 said:

@Princess Arabia i dont resonate with the idea of "low" or "high" consciousness. i think what people mean by this is level of comprehension, understanding and involvement with existence. what i mean by consciousness is simply the fact that existence is. and that fact has never changed, i dont claim there is anyone who claim to be conscious, im saying existence is. it doesnt need an owner. 

im curious whats your definition of consciousness? 

because this is pretty much mine. 

@Sugarcoat pretty much answered ur question here as well

I see. I think slightly different although I agree with you regarding not resonating with the idea of high and low consciousness.
I see consciousness as something of the self, so the self is conscious of itself and a separate reality. This remains constant as long as there is a sense of self, and it is always conscious. With no self at all , I don’t know because i haven’t “experienced” it , but I guess you couldn’t even say there is a reality, because there would be no sense of separation so reality being nothing and everything at the same time. Consciousness is associated with duality for me. I don’t know that for sure tho I’m open to other views 

Edited June 14 by Sugarcoat

[emil1234]

@Leo Gura yes, the only objections i have to this are semantics. but i think the fact that something exists which doesnt decay, is a very strong indication of its transcendence of the physical, since all physical is bound by decay and change

[Oppositionless]

Wonderful, the hard problem of consciousness , unfortunately it doesn't say much about other theories ie materialist panpsychism 

you can also argue directly against physicalism by realizing a material system can't be infinite

Edited June 14 by Oppositionless

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, emil1234 said:

but i think the fact that something exists which doesnt decay, is a very strong indication of its transcendence

The fact that anything at all exists is only possible thanks to trascendence/Infinity.

You can't have anything physical unless a mind imagines it first.

[BlessedLion]

1 hour ago, emil1234 said:

all organic matter or even all physicality are bound by one unifying property; change or decay.

notice how your body is changing literally every second. you may lose a couple of hairs, your skin cells are getting replaced, stuff like that. NOTHING in physical reality is unchanging, change is a law of physical existence.

Notice that your senses have decayed during your life time. Your sight might have gotten worse, maybe you use glasses by now. Your hearing may have gotten worse, likewise with your taste. 

but your consciousness IS EXCACTLY THE SAME as it has always been. it hasnt decayed one fucking bit. 

I honestly think this is an extremely strong indication that consciousness is transcendent of physicality

Never heard this argument before. Very original and good. Thanks for sharing!

[UnbornTao]

First we'd somehow need to realize the nature of what we're talking about, which is consciousness. 

[Sugarcoat]

4 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

First we'd somehow need to realize the nature of what we're talking about, which is consciousness. 

Exactly 

[Contrast]

your consciousness can absolutely decay, just look at Joe Biden 

[ryandesreu]

How is consciousness defined here? I'm tempted to say that the idea of consciousness is just that, an idea, and that consciousness is qualia. 

If I go straight to It what is there? Qualia. 

[Oppositionless]

55 minutes ago, ryandesreu said:

How is consciousness defined here? I'm tempted to say that the idea of consciousness is just that, an idea, and that consciousness is qualia. 

If I go straight to It what is there? Qualia. 

Where does qualia come from? How does it know how to create qualia consistent enough to create a consistent reality?

I believe the answer is intelligence, like the game engine vs the display (qualia)

it's somewhat obvious too, 99% of people don't believe they're just whatever experience they're having. Its just that as seekers we get lost in nondualism and naive subjective idealism.

Edited June 14 by Oppositionless

[ryandesreu]

3 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

Where does qualia come from? How does it know how to create qualia consistent enough to create a consistent reality?

I believe the answer is intelligence, like the game engine vs the display (qualia)

it's somewhat obvious too, 99% of people don't believe they're just whatever experience they're having. Its just that as seekers we get lost in nondualism and naive subjective idealism.

I don't know of qualia coming from anywhere.

Consciousness is intelligence you're saying?

 

 

[Hojo]

Our conscious experiences change over time but notice how you feel like everyone of those states, even when it shifts greatly immediately you still identify with these states that you are in. We can see what we are if we pay attention when these things happen.

If you are walking around in a small town why does it feel like you are in a small town. The small town feels safe as you feel like you have a barrier between you and wilderness .You can notice that you are actually outside walking around in the wilderness with houses built in the wilderness (only its been mowed down for houses) while in the town and the qualia changes.

You can now feel like you are walking around in the wilderness with houses with no barrier between you and wilderness and the safe feeling will leave. You can change the way the entire environment around you feels with a simple mind trick, There is something there doing that.

Mastery of these field changes i believe is a big part of consciousness.

The senses are not becoming degenerative the qualia is. I.E you!

You are like a battery (consciousness) thats filled with energy (awareness). You can be at full battery or .0000000001 percent battery. When God touch my forehead it felt like I had .00001 battery and then was filled to the top and I saw the entire universe behind my eyes.

 

Edited June 16 by Hojo