Latest blog post about child prodigies.

[Davino]

6 hours ago, Water by the River said:

They all wrote fantastic books on the Psychedelic experience and I tried psilocybin a few times I tried acid one or two times and I never had any particularly profound experience although I did have a slight satori on one psilocybin but I just didn't like what it made me feel like in in general. But I was really upset when they outlawed them because I was aware that it for many people at least it was a genuine doorway into a true mystical experience.

Yes, that's what my intuition was telling me actually happened. Ken tried it a few times but didn't find it appealing. Thanks for sharing. We're closer to truth now.

 

 

 

[zurew]

8 hours ago, Water by the River said:

One more absolute statement based on excellent research  just the style @zurew loves.

It seems that you have read some of my rants .

I appreciate seeing some of you holding his feet to the fire as well.

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

A Brief Overview Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration and its Relevance For the Gifted

Dabrowski presents a theory of personality development based on a multilevel, hierarchical view of life. The theory suggests individual developmental potentials are important factors in determining the course of personality growth. Developmental potential includes three aspects; special talents and abilities, a physiological measure of neural reactivity Dabrowski called overexcitability (OE) and a factor describing an inner motivation to develop. Individuals with strong developmental potential tend to experience frequent and intense crises (positive disintegrations) that create opportunities for the development of an autonomous, self-crafted personality. Dabrowski observed that gifted and creative populations tend to exhibit increased levels of developmental potential and thus may be predisposed to experience the process of positive disintegration. While recent work has focussed on the link between overexcitability and giftedness, developmental potential and giftedness are not synonymous, indeed, many (most) with developmental potential will not be classified as gifted, and many gifted will display little overall developmental potential. A brief overview of Dabrowski's theory and its relevance for gifted individuals are presented.

 

[Evan Gill]

3 hours ago, Davino said:

Because it's to femenine for your way of doing spirituality and it doesn't resonate. You can't let go and lose yourself, singing, dancing and being feely and vulnerable.

Take into account that singing and dancing as a spiritual practice is as old as it gets and there are also very masculine spiritual chantings, like tantric, shamanic drumming and african men initiations. However, as time has unfolded the femenine feels a more natural calling to sing and pray for connecting with the divine.

Yeah, perhaps i should be more open to it

[UnbornTao]

22 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

 

 

What even is the purpose of that?

You can go to a Taylor Swift concert and it would be as "spiritual" as this. You're right to be skeptical of rituals that are aimed at "social" purposes rather than anything real. Of course it comes off as cult behavior.

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

What even is the purpose of that?

You can go to a Taylor Swift concert and it would be as "spiritual" as this. You're right to be skeptical of rituals that are aimed at "social" purposes rather than anything real. Of course it comes off as cult behavior.

Social method, individual method; any method is not the thing  

[Rafael Thundercat]

30 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

What even is the purpose of that?

 You're right to be skeptical of rituals that are aimed at "social" purposes rather than anything real. Of course it comes off as cult behavior.

When I originaly posted this Mooji Party was due my suspiction that in his community weed is very common among people. I not guessing in vain, I know some people from there and they gave me some hints that this is the case. Maybe I am wrong but Mooji looks a little potheady sometimes. 

But I dont agree in this part " You can go to a Taylor Swift concert and it would be as "spiritual". No, it could be Entretaining and Exciting and of course if you decide to pour 5 grams of Mushrooms and meditate in her Concert good luck, maybe you can get Awaken that way, who to say not possible. But I would bet there are better settings for that. and Yes in the perspective that life is a Dream in God mind, Taylor concert is just spiritual, no different than Mooji Satsang. But be aware of not conflating things. 

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Since he has never done them". One more absolute statement based on excellent research  just the style @zurew loves. Hey, I goggled 5 minutes for the link below, google + "Ken Wilber psychedelics". 

He hasn't done psychedelics much, but writing he has never done them...

Wilber: "Even though I'm not a psychedelic person myself but I was most upset when they made them illegal in the late 60s because I had at least read so many of the Great authors that were writing about this psychedelic experience I mean Adlous Huxley, Allan Watts.

They all wrote fantastic books on the Psychedelic experience and I tried psilocybin a few times I tried acid one or two times and I never had any particularly profound experience although I did have a slight satori on one psilocybin but I just didn't like what it made me feel like in in general. But I was really upset when they outlawed them because I was aware that it for many people at least it was a genuine doorway into a true mystical experience."

I read statements from him saying he has not done them. So that's what I was going off of. Perhaps I misremembered something.

Either way, it's clear his experience is very limited.

It is still the case the he does not know their power.

My bias is toward grasping the big picture of a situation, not minutia. What I lose in techncial detail I make up for in comprehension. This is not a bug, its a feature of INTP thinking. That's why I'm not a scientist or academic. You can be right about all the technical details and still wrong in the end. In fact that is what all of science and academia is.

But I am glad you added detail to my claim. So thanks for the fact check.

Edited June 17 by Leo Gura

[What Am I]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is still the case the he does not know their power.

That is a good point. As anyone with significant psychedelic experience would know, there's an infinite distance of profundity between a low/moderate dose and a breakthrough. I'd be so curious to hear what Wilber thinks of those, because I'm not so sure standard meditation techniques would lead to what a DMT breakthrough would show you for example. For 5meo though, I wouldn't be surprised to find out his experience is at least comparable.

Edited June 17 by What Am I

[UnbornTao]

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Social method, individual method; any method is not the thing  

I'm asking what they're doing and why. Increasing consciousness isn't limited to the absolute. Social itself doesn't exist, so working on the individual is the thing to do. In any case, pretending that rituals such as this one will somehow lead to a "spiritual" result is misleading, which is what I'm pointing out. But then again, you can use "spiritual" as an umbrella term for any kind of state or experience, specially if it is unusual.

Not everything is facing a wall. Nothing against having fun, as long as it's called that.  

 

7 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

 

But I dont agree in this part " You can go to a Taylor Swift concert and it would be as "spiritual". No, it could be Entretaining and Exciting and of course if you decide to pour 5 grams of Mushrooms and meditate in her Concert good luck, maybe you can get Awaken that way, who to say not possible. But I would bet there are better settings for that. and Yes in the perspective that life is a Dream in God mind, Taylor concert is just spiritual, no different than Mooji Satsang. But be aware of not conflating things. 

They're singing and dancing.

[Water by the River]

14 hours ago, What Am I said:

That is a good point. As anyone with significant psychedelic experience would know, there's an infinite distance of profundity between a low/moderate dose and a breakthrough. I'd be so curious to hear what Wilber thinks of those, because I'm not so sure standard meditation techniques would lead to what a DMT breakthrough would show you for example. For 5meo though, I wouldn't be surprised to find out his experience is at least comparable.

20 years of meditation on an EEG:

Nirvikalpa eyes closed

Nirvikalpa eyes open

 

I am waiting for the first 20 year psychedelic user being able to do that with on-board-means sobre. 

 

 

 

Edited June 18 by Water by the River

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Social itself doesn't exist, so working on the individual is the thing to do.

If you're talking from the Absolute perspective, the individual as distinct from the social doesn't exist either.

 

7 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

In any case, pretending that rituals such as this one will somehow lead to a "spiritual" result is misleading, which is what I'm pointing out.

Why?

Edited June 18 by Carl-Richard

[What Am I]

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

I am waiting for the first 20 year psychedelic user being able to do that with on-board-means sobre.

I think there may be a false perception of my view here. I'm with you 100% that sober meditation, leading to enlightenment, is the true way. And it's the ultimate destination that every human should strive for. I also believe sober meditation can bring about extreme states of liberation beyond what psychedelics can produce on their own, so I think I may differ from Leo on that.

But even Wilber theorizes that some psychedelics seem to be able to produce niche spiritual experiences that meditation perhaps cannot. It's my guess that a DMT breakthrough may be one of those.

 

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you're talking from the Absolute perspective, the individual as distinct from the social doesn't exist either.

It's not a perspective, but you know that, and I'm not. This is basically the reality of interaction: you can work on a tree as it is a grounded reality, physical and "occurring", while "the forest" is entirely a convenient fiction. 

Quote

Why?

Because they're singing and dancing. I also suspect there's a fair amount of fantasy going on there. Hence the culty vibes. This is why I dislike using terms such as spiritual. It can mean anything. If you hold it as getting in touch with your body, letting yourself go in social contexts, etc, then sing away. But at that point why call it spiritual and think it special? You could achieve the same result by going for a run or by playing video games. 

This is like doing hatha yoga and thinking you're getting nearer to your higher self or some such, when all you're doing is stretching your body. Just call it what it is. 

Edited June 18 by UnbornTao

[Rafael Thundercat]

5 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

It's not a perspective, and I'm not. This is basically the reality of interaction: you can work on a tree as it is a grounded reality, physical and "occurring", while "the forest" is entirely a convenient fiction. 

Because they're singing and dancing. I also suspect there's a fair amount of fantasy going on there. Hence the culty vibes. This is why I dislike using terms such as spiritual. It can mean anything. If you hold it as getting in touch with your body, letting yourself go in social contexts, etc, then sing away. But at that point why call it spiritual and think it special? You could achieve the same result by going for a run or by playing video games. 

This is like doing hatha yoga and thinking you're getting nearer to your higher self or some such, when all you're doing is stretching your body. Just call it what it is. 

I got what you say. from my experience using Ayahuasca in group setting. Sometimes around 50 people in circle drinking 2-3 cups of 40ml maximum and being guided by the chant of the healer. I experience that I can do better meditation in the part of the session where everyone are concentrated and just listening and in introspection. In the second part of the session where they get the guitars and people are already in conditions to dance, I feel things get so Extraverted that the energy disperse and is more difficult to concentrate. 

For example. I think that if the most experienced member of this forum would join to introspection together in silence and using a psycadelic tool as consciouness expander it would be much more efficient than many of this setting that I go, because almost for sure the people in the space are not doing this same work. How I know this ? I talk with then ,and all they talk about after the trips are mostly about the visions, very little about Realizing the Samenessness of everything. Basicaly people go to some settings to have some fun and destress from the Boringness of daily life. 

So, yes, call the things by the name: A party is a party. Deep Work is another story

[Water by the River]

19 minutes ago, What Am I said:

I think there may be a false perception of my view here. I'm with you 100% that sober meditation, leading to enlightenment, is the true way. And it's the ultimate destination that every human should strive for. I also believe sober meditation can bring about extreme states of liberation beyond what psychedelics can produce on their own, so I think I may differ from Leo on that.

But even Wilber theorizes that some psychedelics seem to be able to produce niche spiritual experiences that meditation perhaps cannot. It's my guess that a DMT breakthrough may be one of those.

 

Sure, I agree on that.

Exploration of the Multiverse (at least some dimensions) is only possible with psychedelics.

I am not against psychedelics at all. Just putting the n+1 exploration as "higher" or "more important" than liberation and resting in True Infinite Being (aka Enlightenment) is a value statement (summum bonum), which can lead to:

 

And one can still go exploring the Multiverse with psychedelics after Enlightenment if one is so inclined. It is not exclusive. But then coming from a perspective of abundance and liberation, and not trying to ease the regular suffering of a well-and-alive-self-contraction with temporaray visits of the 7th heaven realms via psychedelics. 

[Breakingthewall]

@Water by the River  "psychedelics" is a very general definition. 5meo dmt is not the same as lsd or marihuana. I would like to know Wilber's opinion, or yours for example, after 4 or 5 real breakthroughs with 5meo. not only about the trip itself, but about the sensations in the meditation in the following days

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Water by the River said:

20 years of meditation on an EEG:

Nirvikalpa eyes closed

Nirvikalpa eyes open

 

I am waiting for the first 20 year psychedelic user being able to do that with on-board-means sobre. 

That is not high consciousness and it is not awakening.

These are human parlor tricks, not serious consciousness of anything.

Edited June 18 by Leo Gura

[What Am I]

30 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Water by the River  "psychedelics" is a very general definition. 5meo dmt is not the same as lsd or marihuana. I would like to know Wilber's opinion, or yours for example, after 4 or 5 real breakthroughs with 5meo. not only about the trip itself, but about the sensations in the meditation in the following days

Yes, definitely. At least in his older videos, I don't think he was aware that a psychedelic exists which could bypass the subtle and go right to causal. 5meo is such a powerful meditation tool, it boggles the mind.

[What Am I]

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

And one can still go exploring the Multiverse with psychedelics after Enlightenment if one is so inclined. It is not exclusive. But then coming from a perspective of abundance and liberation, and not trying to ease the regular suffering of a well-and-alive-self-contraction with temporaray visits of the 7th heaven realms via psychedelics. 

Good point, this is probably how it should be, where the freedom from a contracted self is pursued first and foremost. My spiritual journey is a good example of how you can get sidetracked and distracted for 20 years. Either from psychedelic use, or from pursuits of spiritual attainment not directly aimed at liberation. I think doing so has created a kind of ripple effect that's actually made life more difficult than it should have been. Possibly through the metaphysical mechanism of karma, due to tapping into higher things while still having that small sense of self.

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Exploration of the Multiverse (at least some dimensions) is only possible with psychedelics.

To clarify, in my opinion, it'd probably be possible for a sober human to do this and much more. It's just that the enlightened folks we hear about haven't typically seemed to access these other things once liberated, whether out of ignorance of their existence or maybe wisdom to avoid it.

Edited June 18 by What Am I