Was Osho punished for his deeds?

[bambi]

12 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Then it was unearned grace by definition. A yet to earned by falling into that pit. Just so life could teach you the wisdom of not doing drugs.

There is no real falling in wisdom or grace. The apparent falls are just lessons to deepen our wisdom and grace further. 

No this is not my understanding, we can definately fall from Grace. We can engage in negative behaviours and fall for spiritual traps. Id caution about this toxic positivity it can be very dangerous and misleading

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, bambi said:

We can engage in negative behaviours and fall for spiritual traps

Making a mistake does not amount to falling from wisdom. Making a mistake amounts to lack of wisdom yet to be earned. 

[bambi]

Just now, Salvijus said:

Making a mistake does not amount to falling from wisdom. Making a mistake amounts to lack of wisdom yet to be earned. 

Yes toxic positivity 101, it can be your prefered lens for life, but it sint mine and caution others against it. Call a spade a spade, it wont kill you!

[Salvijus]

Making a mistake does not amount to falling from wisdom. Making a mistake amounts to lack of wisdom yet to be earned. 

It's the truth. 

[bambi]

You are the one changing words to ensure you maintian toxic positivity at all costs, not me, my dear friend. We are talking past each other, I was simply trying to show you the spade.

[Salvijus]

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

You are the one changing words to ensure you maintian toxic positivity at all costs, not me, my dear friend. We are talking past each other, I was simply trying to show you the spade.

And I'm showing you the truth. If your spade is different than the truth then it is not worth much. 

Edited June 11 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

I'm not changing the words. I'm literally killing the whole idea of there being a fall from Grace. And you have no counter argument. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

If a guru is in bad health i automatically start from the principle that something is particularly wrong in his paradigm.

Leo conffesed he had severe health problems that he was dealing for a long time. Nothing impede one from being very Awake and still have super difficult health problems. 

[bambi]

No you are showing me your toxic positivity and inability to see spades. It pains you to think there someone can fall for a trap or make a spiritual mistake, its all learning lessons baby, sure that is one perspective, the other is you have just fallen for a trap, no need to get hysterical, acknowledge recity and move on. This is the textbook definition of toxic positivity You can recontextualise it however you need to make yourself feel better, and to keep your reverence in tact for Osho, I dont need this, but if you do, go ahead

[Salvijus]

It's not toxic positivity if it's literally true. 

And it's not just one perceptive out of many. It's the only true perspective. 

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

It's not toxic positivity if it's literally true. 

And it's not just one perceptive out of many. It's the only true perspective. 

You have too much pride to listen to humans so maybe AI will help you:

### Understanding Toxic Positivity
**Toxic positivity** is the excessive and ineffective overgeneralization of a happy, optimistic state across all situations. It is the belief that one should maintain a positive mindset and focus on the good aspects of any situation, no matter how dire or challenging. This can invalidate genuine emotions and experiences, leading to several negative consequences.

### How These Phrases Reflect Toxic Positivity

1. **Invalidating Genuine Emotions:**
   - When people face difficult situations, such as loss, failure, or trauma, being told that "everything happens for a reason" can feel dismissive. It implies that their pain or suffering is trivial and that they should find a positive aspect to focus on.
   - Similarly, the idea that "there is only learning" can minimize the emotional impact of adverse experiences. It suggests that negative emotions are not valid and should be replaced with a more optimistic outlook.

2. **Imposing Unrealistic Expectations:**
   - These phrases set an expectation that one must always find meaning or positivity in every situation, which is not always possible or healthy. It can lead individuals to suppress negative emotions, rather than processing and dealing with them constructively.
   - Constantly trying to find a "reason" for every event can create pressure to justify suffering or hardship, leading to frustration and guilt when such reasons are not evident.

3. **Ignoring Complex Realities:**
   - Life is complex, and not all events have a clear reason or lesson. Tragedies, random misfortunes, and injustices often occur without any inherent purpose. Insisting that everything happens for a reason oversimplifies these complexities.
   - This perspective can also ignore systemic issues or external factors that contribute to negative experiences. For instance, it can downplay the impact of social, economic, or environmental factors on an individual's circumstances.

4. **Hindering Emotional Growth:**
   - Emotional growth involves acknowledging and experiencing a full range of emotions, including pain, sadness, and anger. By insisting on finding a positive reason for everything, individuals may avoid dealing with these necessary emotions.
   - Genuine learning and growth often come from facing and processing negative experiences, not just re-framing them positively.

### Examples of Toxic Positivity in Practice

- **Grief:** Telling someone who has lost a loved one that "everything happens for a reason" can invalidate their grief and pain, suggesting they should quickly move on and find some positive lesson in their loss.
- **Failure:** When someone fails at a significant endeavor, insisting that "there is only learning" can dismiss their feelings of disappointment and frustration, ignoring the need for empathy and support.
- **Trauma:** Suggesting that traumatic experiences happen for a reason can further traumatize individuals by implying that their suffering was necessary or deserved.

### Healthier Alternatives

1. **Validation of Emotions:**
   - Acknowledge and validate negative emotions. It’s important to let people know that it’s okay to feel sad, angry, or frustrated.
   - Example: "I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s completely normal to feel upset."

2. **Support and Empathy:**
   - Offer support and understanding without immediately trying to find a silver lining.
   - Example: "I’m here for you. Let me know if there’s anything I can do to help."

3. **Balanced Perspective:**
   - Encourage a balanced perspective that allows for both positive and negative emotions.
   - Example: "It’s okay to feel bad right now. With time, you might find some lessons or strength from this, but it’s also okay if you don’t."

4. **Focus on Agency:**
   - Emphasize the individual’s agency and capacity to cope and grow, rather than suggesting that everything is predetermined.
   - Example: "This is a really tough situation, but I believe in your ability to get through it and find your way."

By acknowledging the full spectrum of human emotions and the complexity of life’s challenges, we can provide more genuine support and foster healthier emotional growth.

[Salvijus]

Truth is never a toxic positivity. Truth is simply truth. 

[Salvijus]

15 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Making a mistake does not amount to falling from wisdom. Making a mistake amounts to lack of wisdom yet to be earned. 

It's the truth. 

Unless you have a counter argument to this. Nothing you say means anything. 

[Buck Edwards]

I don't think enlightenment and health have a particular corelation. Lots of enlightened gurus that live with health issues. I don't know why that should be connected or this weird expectation that they should be able to heal themselves. 

 

[gettoefl]

16 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

@gettoefl Abuse includes extracting money from followers willingly to buy a fleet of Rolls-Royce cars.

people gave him money willingly and lovingly and i know no cases where he defrauded anyone

his buying rolls royces was a device to show you your envy and your poverty and your insufficiency

and it worked

he spoke on this matter in his discourses many times

people love to bash osho with rumours and innuendos but they can't argue with his words

he left a great legacy to assist with awakening, almost 200 books

what have you done for mankind?

[Schizophonia]

14 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Leo conffesed he had severe health problems that he was dealing for a long time. Nothing impede one from being very Awake and still have super difficult health problems. 

Leo isn’t more conscious, he has an normal human neuroendocrinal balance when he is not in drugs.

He plays personas just like everybody.

Edited June 12 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

Notice how liberals and philanthropist « gurus » (I my case Joe Dispenza and Franck Lopvet for exemple) are healthy and even have the hability the recover from big issues (respectively damaged bones narrow and stroke).

 

[enchanted]

20 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

In the last years of his life, he was deported from The US and no other country wanted to accept him. He returned to India, to experience a debilitating physical illness for 5 years before his death, he died young (58 years old). "Osho continued to struggle with chronic health issues, including asthma, diabetes, and chronic back pain. He suffered from extreme fatigue, memory loss, and coordination problems, which further hampered his ability to lead and engage with his community". He claims he was poisoned by heavy metals in US custody.

Or am I doing a lot of projection here?

Osho said when he got his "awakening" he turned grey and old very quickly because his soul had died and he's now an empty shell or something like that.

[LSD-Rumi]

18 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Leo conffesed he had severe health problems that he was dealing for a long time. Nothing impede one from being very Awake and still have super difficult health problems. 

There are 3 reasons for diseases for spiritual people:

1. Randomness: Just like everyone else, illness can sometimes be a random occurrence, a part of the unpredictable nature of life.
2. To purify them further from the ego and push their spiritual development
3. a punishment (not in the negative sense, but more of a nudge) so they go back to the righteous way

 

Edited June 12 by LSD-Rumi

[bambi]

24 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

There are 3 reasons for diseases for spiritual people:

1. Randomness: Just like everyone else, illness can sometimes be a random occurrence, a part of the unpredictable nature of life.
2. To purify them further from the ego and push their spiritual development
3. a punishment so they go back to the righteous way

 

Yes agreed all though punishment probably has a better word

 

You just have to invert enlightenment, what is its diametric oppositon: meph addict who rapes, steals and murders for his addiction.

Meph addicts are highly susceptible to mental illness and myriad physical issues, that become increasingly more probable the longer they stay stuck

Conversely an enlighened person would be in their highest physical and psychologicla health, this doesnt move them to 0 probabiltiy of illness, but gives them the best chance at health