Center Right and Far Right Swing in EU 2024 Vote

[Basman]

1 hour ago, Abe27 said:

@Basman Most likely.

From a young persons perspective it's sad to see what the current goverment is doing to the country. Many older people belive the social democrats to be the ideal party in the middel, since it was back in the old days. I belive when i get old many will have the same perspective i have, and never forgive the social democrats for what they did.

Scandinavia handlet covid well, i think it has less to do with her and more to do with the culture and overall political system. It seems quite clear that she did some major mistakes, but luckly no one person can have so much control to make the mistakes to meaningfull.

Yeah, you might be right. I'm probably giving mommy Mette too much credits.

[Raze]

 

Edited June 16 by Raze

[Rafael Thundercat]

Some Fun...

In light of the overt political persecution of President Trump, I thought it worthwhile to highlight the two ineffectual right-wing archetypes that are nothing but bags of dead weight for anyone motivated by a desire to see real change.

There is an opportunity to focus on the policies that will allow a majority of Americans to live a more prosperous and meaningful life, but, unfortunately, many on the right get fixated on issues that are either low on the list of importance for Americans, or will do next to nothing to benefit our economy and quality of life.

As always, I’m curious to hear your thoughts

[Rafael Thundercat]

On 11/06/2024 at 9:02 AM, zazen said:

It’s a human tendency to swing from one extreme to another, fleeing the wounds inflicted by one set of ideas to replace them with another set of ideas that promise to free you but end up harming in other ways.

True. Imagine that even me a person who rejected the Mormon Church. I am now considering going back. I cant cope with the Green Hippies anyomore, to much Hypocrisy in the Community, to much Gread Mother Earth and and going around the Bush with God-Realization. Mórmons are full of their own BS but at least the word God is used with more frequency, and the girls still smell good and shave their hairs. hehe. The off-grid fanatsy also is a Trap. We cant escape civilization, one day or another the zombies arrive in you forest land paradise. 

Edited June 17 by Rafael Thundercat

[BlueOak]

@zazen

It has been a rough time. Sorry for the delay.

It doesn’t matter if you kill a man in what you have arbitrarily decided is your backyard or a thousand miles away. Suffering is still suffering.

You are arguing for a return to land grabs and border wars as preferable. Because you are trying to say it's somehow better than a war overseas, it isn’t. It still creates imbalance, instability, uncertainty, and suffering. Globalized supply chains, for example, cannot function in a world beset by people fighting wars with their neighbors, which means every aspect of your life changes because everything needs to be sourced locally. More expenses, regression in some areas of development, a lot more chaos and competition.

In this multi-polar world, you are hoping for. People militarize to protect against their neighbors, which increases the use of the military to achieve aims. This is the cycle toward a global war that is now accelerating. It may settle down when the two sides solidify, leading to less frequent larger wars rather than smaller ones (or just a long cold war). This isn't a global collective emerging; it's two poles: authoritarian vs democratic.

It is still colonialism; the method has just changed. Money does it now, as do mercenary forces like Wagner or proxy forces. The land is still giving its resources to the empires that control them, and the manpower will be used for their overlord's wars. What else is there? A label of independence on the country, but the wealth is still being shipped overseas.

You are then arguing that both the US is dominant and that it is a multi-polar world. NATO’s collective GDP without the US is closer than you make out; I can’t remember the exact value now, but it's close. The EU’s is not insignificant either, at 18 trillion vs 26, or China is at 17, so it's not as lopsided as you are making out.

BRICS are not patterning Western imperialism; they’ve invented their own. They either invade their neighbors outright to take over land, topple governments, or buy them out, fund favorable political parties, spread their propaganda, take their resources, and secure proxy states that way. I find it hard to understand why you consider this preferable other than aligning with your preferences.

Then you get idealistic: BRICS is just another set of countries doing what they can for themselves. Don't tell me they are somehow more enlightened in their approach to governance or politics; this is the weakest part of your response. They take and take until they are stopped; where is the stage, green or yellow, BRICS leader?

If this was a global collective emerging, this would be a different conversation. These two poles will lead to conflict and competition, not cooperation. Sure, there will be some benefits, maybe a proper space race, and development in some areas, but it will also create chaos.

No positive elements of the liberal world order are going to be preserved by expansionist authoritarian regimes. We fight to keep those, or they get taken from us; I am talking domestically right now as I’ve seen it happening for 20 years.

All I see BRICS doing is warmongering, so I see no positive outcome from them at all to the world as a whole, I see a positive outcome for their own countries. I understand people want more; they always do. So this is the path to a potentially larger war, or long cold war because they have convinced themselves that 2 is better than 1. (And yes, I realize the 1 was also poorly put together, even the UN) It's very obvious and playing out. Now I see Russia arming North Korea with Nukes and Belarus to justify their own expansionist aims, so a nuclear war is closer. This does not make the world safer because the other side will likely respond in some like-minded way.

Edited June 27 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

Here is how to fix some of this.

BRICS to the entire World.

Do you want to join BRICS? This would also make BRICS dominant in the world, an open-ended message to every country all at once broadcasted publicly (even those they dislike). Ditto NATO, or a NATO-like alliance.

[bebotalk]

For every action, there is a reaction.

Immigration has been an issue in EUrope for a long time. And there has been less emphasis on integration of immigrants.

People of various different races and cultures is fine in itself. But national languages of European countries should be promoted as the standard. It's the PC wish not to integrate and enforce localised cultures and norms that's partof the issue. 

As well as some saying "oh well Europeans colonised parts of the world, so they got no right to complain!!" So EUropeans alive today, who didn't conquer India or Indochina, should pay for what some Europeans centuries ago did? Surely colonialism proves that it's wrong for cultures from overseas to impose their ways on others. Two wrongs don't make a right. A desire for "vengeance" in this form shows racism in itself, and hypocrisy in decrying a patently historically wrong act and morally condoning similar today. 

[zazen]

On 27/06/2024 at 9:20 AM, BlueOak said:

Here is how to fix some of this.

BRICS to the entire World.

Do you want to join BRICS? This would also make BRICS dominant in the world, an open-ended message to every country all at once broadcasted publicly (even those they dislike). Ditto NATO, or a NATO-like alliance.

So the same group of countries that have a history of lying, stealing, cheating and invading the global South/East, expect to be invited into a fold comprising mostly of the global South/East? Who are creating this alliance exactly to counter the West trampling on their sovereignty and development. Don't think so, they need to earn that trust. African nations one after the other have been kicking out Western influence and talking back like never before. Decades of the West abusing its power and position has left a bitter after taste that will take some time to go away. The West imposes sanctions on countries that often cripple those countries, then cries about countries wishing to create a parallel system to rid itself of this tyrannical tentacle of a tool which disrupts their ability to trade and develop. Other countries will be dictating some of the terms now - like the Somali pirate meme goes - I am the captain now.

It's not like China hates Europe or doesn't want anything to do with them either - in fact they were at the end stages of signing the EU-China Comprehensive Agreement on Investment (CAI) , before the Ukraine war kicked off, which is now gathering dust. I wonder who benefits from that: ''In total trade, China overtook the United States in 2020 and became the EU's largest trade in goods partner. However, in 2022 the United States retook the first position.''  Europe's been trading with Asia since Marco Polo was in diapers. But now they're supposed to cut ties because America says so? The US is that kid who lives across the street but insists on dictating who you can play with in your own backyard which happens to be a blessed piece of land linked to many other geographic players and partners for business.

US sits by itself across the Atlantic in jealousy wanting to maintain a semblance of authority and power, whilst securing a running stream of profits to its coffers.  Just like in post WW2, Europe became dependent on US markets, US military protection, and US approval. The almighty dollar became king, and Europe's once proud nations found themselves sheep to America's dictates. In the game of realpolitik, there are no permanent allies, only permanent interests. And America's interest has always been to stay on top - even if it means keeping its "friends" on their knees.

For a insightful perspective on BRICS I'd suggest these two videos and 18 minutes of your time which you can make approx 10 with 1.5x speed:

 

 

Edited June 29 by zazen

[BlueOak]

@zazen

1) Those you hate have little to no influence on anything and hate the same things you do.
A bunch of rich sociopaths several hundreds of years ago put many people into differing forms of slavery, most these days are wage slaves of varying degrees, and that's universal.

The average American can't even name the countires on a map you are talking about. The average European is just suffering a 9-5 they hate to make ends meet. These countries are not your enemies, despite the propaganda telling you so.

Stop dividing the world up just to make your own ego feel better that you have someone new to hate. Why push for more cyclic suffering? Do you think somehow things will get better that way?

2) I said THE GLOBE. You heard: 'Those you don't like', and then proceeded to tell me why I should sympathize with your hatred. I do. I also think extending it for another generation to take care of is absurd and insane. Be the better people you say you are and push for a global system, not two fractured warring parties.

As it stands now you are no better than those you hate. No different and not ethically or morally superior. BRICS still causes suffering and you are stilling championing it in the name of ethics and morals, or just personal gain.

3) From now on, I will say China in my discussions with you about BRICS, that BRICS is on its knees to China. Until you become as frustrated as I do with you making these comments about Europe, whose GDP was greater than the US last I checked (all of Europe, the continent). I could be corrected; it's been a while since I added it up, and it depends on where the boundaries are drawn.

It seems to me you think unless a country is throwing its military strength around its 'on its knees'. No, Europe was just happy being Europe and sitting on profits (giving back a hefty amount in trade with the US) without needing much military to enforce their lifestyle. A remilitarized Europe, all these powerful countries acting independently, will not make the world safer for you. There will be more war. 

I think we need a big war to remind people how futile this approach is, I honestly think we are headed to it.

Edited June 30 by BlueOak