Role Of Psychedelics And Their Effects After Self-Realization: Artem Boytsov x Frank

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, RedLine said:

"Comprehension", "Metaphysics" these are only the ego pretending to be gigantic and nothing else

You could not be more wrong.

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

@Leo Gura What do you make of Martin W. Ball descriptions in his book 'Being Human' (after he's having had so many realizations on 5meo), claiming that God is a Being, perfectly self-aware, existing as energy, and as that energy, taking all forms. He also describes that, in the way God as energy takes form, God is mathematical.

That's one way of looking at it.

But that Being is also you.

As far as mathematical, I would not limit God in that way. But there's some truth in that since reality can be thought of mathematically. But I would say Consciousness is beyond mathematical.

Edited June 21 by Leo Gura

[Bufo Alvarius]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's one way of looking at it.

But that Being is also you.

As far as mathematical, I would not limit God in that way. But there's some truth in that since reality can be thought of mathematically.

But Martin clearly limits God to being infinite energy, which leaves you with material/energy reality as the only place to be so to speak, leaving out the possibility for any non-physical reality. 

Is that also how you look at it?

[Leo Gura]

59 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Well... I know you think im full of shit, but i Will say It to you regardless:

You still havent really grasped what this present moment is.

Is not God, a dream, or whatever you become conscious of.

Once you grasp what you are, youll get It and it will be over for real. No more Dreaming or fantasies.

So far you Only have known identifications

And as long as It stays like that, you Will never know what this present moment is.

And so the Dreaming Will continue... 

You dont get how DEEP this fantasy goes.

You can actually stop Dreaming and Awake for real.

As long as you are conscious and you are talking, you are dreaming. And you do not control your dream.

Edited June 21 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

20 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

But Martin clearly limits God to being infinite energy, which leaves you with material/energy reality as the only place to be so to speak, leaving out the possibility for any non-physical reality. 

Is that also how you look at it?

By energy he just means everything. You could call it consciousness or energy or mind or spirit. Just different ways to saying the same thing.

Edited June 22 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

As long as you are conscious and you are talking, you are dreaming. And you do not control your dream.

Dreaming is one possibility among infinite possibilities. it does not mean anything. In this possibility, you are dreaming of a reality with a certain development. It is absolutely irrelevant on a metaphysical level. The only relevant thing is the substance of reality, how it is circumstantial. It means absolutely nothing 😅. It's hard to realize, bit sad. Nothing means nothing. Because it's infinite. The meaning is finite. The only that means is what the infinity is, and it's absolute,never changes, and its absolutely simple

Edited June 21 by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

What meaning or lack of it you assign to your dream is a secondary matter. The fact still remains that you are dreaming.

As long as you have experience, that experience is the dream. I am not saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying it is occuring and you do not control it.

Edited June 21 by Leo Gura

[Someone here]

Leo ,stop making shit up and admit that you are not on 5 meo trip right now which means you are not infinitely conscious right now which means you don't have the answer to everything which means your confidence in how you are wording this whole "Dream "stuff is not on point .

[Bufo Alvarius]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

By energy he just means everything. You could call it consciousness or energy. Just different ways to saying the same thing.

yes, but that does not address the issue about this physical reality being all there is vs. having physical and non-physical realities which you can navigate between.

For example, in Tom Campbell's view, you have Consciousness creating this dream, with a certain fixed rule set, for you as a piece of that larger consciousness, having the possibility to log on to a dream character in the dream and experiencing it. This also means, that as that piece/unit of consciousness (that you temporarily limit yourself to), you can shift from that dream/reality frame to another, e.g. Astral travel. In a sense, every dreamworld is 'non-physical' (because it's made out of Consciousness), the only difference between physical and non-physical dreamworlds is how tight the governing rule set is. 

On the other hand, from Martins perspective, this physical matter / energy universe, is all that there is. He leaves no space, that you, as consciousness, can switch between different dreamworlds/reality frames. From his perspective, anything that is not happening on this physical plane (like having out of body experiences into other, non-physical dreamworlds/reality frames) is just a fabrication of the mind, and has no reality onto itself.

So my main question would be, if you hold the view, that this physical/energy matter dream is all there is, or if you side Tom, by looking at it in a way, that the larger Consciousness system is simulating these dream realities, for pieces of itself to log on to, like logging on to a multi player game (but from a 'place' that is itself 'outside' the game).

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Leo ,stop making shit up and admit that you are not on 5 meo trip right now which means you are not infinitely conscious right now which means you don't have the answer to everything which means your confidence in how you are wording this whole "Dream "stuff is not on point .

I am not infinitely conscious right now.

But I don't need to be in order to understand that you are in a dream.

It's not like I'm saying anything that serious spiritual traditions haven't said. You've been told that reality is a dream by every major serious spiritual tradition. The Hindus have been saying it for 5000 years. What more do you want?

My teachings do not contradict any serious spiritual teachings. The only difference is that I give you the 100% undiluted version of it, without sugarcoating anything or playing to any of your human biases.

19 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

On the other hand, from Martins perspective, this physical matter / energy universe, is all that there is. He leaves no space, that you, as consciousness, can switch between different dreamworlds/reality frames. From his perspective, anything that is not happening on this physical plane (like having out of body experiences into other, non-physical dreamworlds/reality frames) is just a fabrication of the mind, and has no reality onto itself.

I don't assign any special priority to our physical universe/dream. You could dream an infinite number of various dreams. Just because you're not dreaming some particular dream right this second doesn't mean you cannot dream it in the future.

Yes, some people can do astral travel.

Edited June 21 by Leo Gura

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not infinitely conscious right now.

But I don't need to be in order to understand that you are in a dream.

It's not like I'm saying anything that serious spiritual traditions haven't said. You've been told that reality is a dream by every major serious spiritual tradition. The Hindus have been saying it for 5000 years. What more do you want?

My teachings do not contradict any serious spiritual teachings. The only difference is that I give you the 100% undiluted version of it, without sugarcoating anything or playing any of your human biases.

when spiritual people says this they arepointing to the fact that consciousness (or awareness .. sentience etc whichever term you prefer) is the basis of all experience. And without it nothing exist independently. 

This isn’t a mystical or supernatural statement.. it’s something very obvious that everyone agrees on. You can’t know or experience anything if you are dead.. in a deep sleep or in a complete coma.

They just mean that existence takes place in consciousness.  Consciousness is the substratum of existence.  Of course they don't mean you are literally someone else dreaming this Leo life and that when you die you will find yourself lying in bed as a another person. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

This Cat called Rafael Thundercat, this Jaguar drinking Coffee. Is poping up out of Infinity, there are Inifinite other cats there. I saw it.

[questionreality]

On 6/19/2024 at 8:36 PM, Leo Gura said:

@questionreality I don't listen to any human speaking about spirituality because it is all human nonsense.

Nonduality is a narrow state of consciousness humans invented.

I have explained this plenty by now.

You are dreaming nonduality. There's nothing more to explain. Get it or don't.

But aren't you also a human that is speaking about spirituality? And you think you are the only human to get it? 

[BlessedLion]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

As long as you are conscious and you are talking, you are dreaming. And you do not control your dream.

Who controls it?

 

Im perplexed still on how one can be Being, in the sense of One Being (God) unseperated from reality, but still unable to influence or control it. 
 

No matter what I do a rock is a rock and there’s nothing I can do to change its form. Even though I’m “doing it”/ imagining it. How does that work? Is there any control at all? If not what the FUCK is controlling it

[BlessedLion]

15 hours ago, Someone here said:

Of course they don't mean you are literally someone else dreaming this Leo life and that when you die you will find yourself lying in bed as a another person. 

That’s not what Leo is pointing at. It’s that you are the dreamer but the dreamer is Nothingness, not another seperate being in another bed. There’s Nothing here

[BlessedLion]

23 hours ago, Davino said:

@Javfly33

 

Y'all take Leo too much for granted.

You really don't know who you are talking with. You wouldn't bullshit a Nobel prize winner with your undergraduate physics understanding. Yet everyone does this to Leo all day long. It makes me feel bad honestly. What else can I say. I would cut on this behaviour, one thing is two minds working together towards truth and understanding and another is systematic gaslighting and convincing everyone to my Point Of View.

I agree. It’s kinda bullshit how people fling shit at Leo, the dude is a mystic 

[emil1234]

13 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

I agree. It’s kinda bullshit how people fling shit at Leo, the dude is a mystic 

+1. im team leo

[koops]

15 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

Who controls it?

 

Im perplexed still on how one can be Being, in the sense of One Being (God) unseperated from reality, but still unable to influence or control it. 
 

No matter what I do a rock is a rock and there’s nothing I can do to change its form. Even though I’m “doing it”/ imagining it. How does that work? Is there any control at all? If not what the FUCK is controlling it

Same.

Was thinking about it.

If I awaken as God, and God is omnipotent, I still cant control/influence/change/re-imagine things.

@Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

20 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

@Water by the River although going from his descriptions, Artem seems to have clearly transcended all self arisings, in his meta view on reality, he does hold the perspective, that the physical universe is all that there is, as an indivisible play of matter and energy. In his view, Astral travel and non physical life beyond death of the physical body, are imaginations of the mind, and consequently, can be transcended and seen through as illusions (see screenshots of his exact wordings attached). 

How do you look at this perspective and how do you bring it together with perspectives of Jürgen Ziewe or Tom Cambell's 'Larger Consciousness System'? It seems to me that Artem interprets his enlightenment in a way, that gives rise to a matter/energy reality only, beyond which nothing else exists (such as non physical existence as consciousness)

Btw, may I ask if you do experience dreaming?

Good questions.

Enlightenment means having realized ones true eternal nature as Infinite Being/Infinite Reality itself. How does one call that? There is nothing to reference it against. No pointer fully describes it, since any pointer is containted within "it". Its You. Formless Infinite Eternal True You/Being. So one could describe it as raspberry, or not, credit to Ralston.

From Artems homepage:

What did you realize -- expressed in one sentence -- upon spiritual awakening?
I don’t exist - I never have. My existence was a dream, a delusion. I am the totality of existence, which is fundamentally unknowable. Nothing can be said about what I am.

That is true, because Infinite Being/Infinite Reality can not be described "positively" in any way, since that would already limit it, and that pointers appears within it. Madhyamaka. Yet, one can "dance" and guide linguistically with pointers as high as possible.

20 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

although going from his descriptions, Artem seems to have clearly transcended all self arisings, in his meta view on reality, he does hold the perspective, that the physical universe is all that there is, as an indivisible play of matter and energy

To answer your question: I wouldn't write like he does, like hairless monkey as last stage. Or material/physical universe and so on. Put 10 people having realized their nature in one room, and they will all use different language. But he doesn't mean a material/physical universe external or separate from him. He means nondual. How one calls the "dreamstuff" or mere appearance of manifestation is not so important.

And, after realizing fundamental Infinite Reality/True Being, it is a bit like:

Dogen: Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.

The uuuuuuuuuuh, oooooooooooh, its all mere appearance and dream stuff happening in Infinite Being has worn off, become old. Its like: Yeah, its like that, so nothing special, and the "realizer" of that is also not special (because the "realizer"-arisings are also illusion). Taking that as special would tend to kill the awakened states, because of self-importance and stuff the like. So its mountains are again mountains. A hairless monkey appears in my Infinite Being, which can run perfectly fine on autopilot. No need to make an identity out of that and feel like being only that hairless monkey. Or that the hairless monkey is special. That really is fooling "one"-self. A special monkey in Infinite Being, being a special monkey. A nice seduction/ilusion.

Concerning "Consciousness doesn't exist" - well, I wouldn't write it like that. Semantics. Self-Consciousness doesn't exist, but appears. Some appearances happen, and there is Awareness of it. That can't be denied. Nisgardatta made a differentiation between Consciousness (doesn't exist but appear), but Awareness does (he called that Parabrahman). In my view, that is all not the optimum usage of words/semantics. Infinite Reality with the potential of consciousness OF/Awareness IF appearances appear. And unaware of itself if nothing appears (cessation). In its Infinite state if truly nothing arises, "it" has the potential for sentience if form/appearance/movement arises, but "it" doesn't have to. Deep Sleep, Cessation, Nirvikalpa. And btw., differentiating that difference between consciousness OF and Infinite/Absolute potentially unaware of itself (Cessation, Deep Sleep, Nirvikalpa) is the deciding difference between Enlightenment and previous AWAKENINGS, um, Awakenings. It is the difference between the Absolute Reality being truly empty and formless, or "loaded" with consciousness OF (aka form/appearance/lenses/filters/...). 

Maybe that helps. Again, not my style, but I understand what he means and why he writes that.

And then: We had enlightened Adi Da (who f***** up in many areas), we had enlightened Zen "Nazis" (Zen at War). Obviously, plenty of stuff on the relative level can still go wrong. And "coming out" as a teacher... well, not for the faint of hearted. Not everbody gets that done "in grace" like for example Francis Lucille, after been coached for 15 years after his Enlightenment (if I understood that correctly) and getting students refered to by his teacher Jean Klein, after being financially independend and not chasing anything anymore...  then the teacher-gig is much more easier.

Ken Wilber wrote one can remain a jerk and still be enlightened. That is the remaining personality. And that being/mindstream can still know its True Nature and what Infinite Reality is perfectly well. And can easily become a red flag for others because of claiming Enlightenment. I would look for compassion when searching a teacher, and liberation. And intelligence and clear speaking. And even then, that gentleman/lady can still go wrong drastically on the relative level. And still know his/her true nature... So not easy the whole thing...

20 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

Btw, may I ask if you do experience dreaming?

Concerning my dreams: I still dream and am have a dream character then. Which after waking up I delight in that, because - what a dream, delivered with dream character believing in it! I also have lucid dreams, and the dream sometimes changes to something more Astral-like when breaking the "story-line" of the lucid dream and for example intensely focusing on my hand, or the grass. It can get as real or more as physical reality. Sometimes I "jump" realms/areas then with the usual techniques. Very real and clear, and no background story. (Not the usual hazy dream with a story one "buys" without reflecting that it doesn't make sense. How did I get here, and where did I park my car.... )

Once met a recently deceased relative. Sometimes I pass from dream realms to infinite causal states (something like infinite darkness suffused with light, totally formless and infinite) to waking states/waking up, which is a fascinating continuity. Also "dying" in a dream and going through these infinite (causal in Wilber language) states, dream again, dying again and so on... An infinite playground.

For me, what seasoned Astral Travelers like Jurgen Ziewe write makes sense based on my own limited experiences. And most important: Timless Eternal Infinite Reality, which can also appear as Deep Sleep, is right here, right now, eternally so. "Deep Sleep is right here". True Being. All these dream states, deep sleep, Astral anything, physical life and what not pass "before" or "in it" like a show, a movie. Like Dreams.

Concerning his claims of dreams getting less/ceasing:

I have run over several statements in the biographies of historical meditators/enlightened ones which align in that the dreams at night get less, and become more lucid and so on. Some never dream or even deep sleep (but remain lucid throughout), like Haari Aalto. Who did this from early years onwards, together with celestial perception, in his case from Karmic influence I believe.

20 hours ago, RedLine said:

How do you look at this perspective and how do you bring it together with perspectives of Jürgen Ziewe or Tom Cambell's 'Larger Consciousness System'? It seems to me that Artem interprets his enlightenment in a way, that gives rise to a matter/energy reality only, beyond which nothing else exists (such as non physical existence as consciousness)

His declaring that Astral travels are dreams is technically correct, but everything so to say is a dream. But just because he doesn't experience Astral travels/OBEs doesn't mean that on a relative level these mechanisms don't exist. He just doesn't have them. Also, because of that, it seems he doesn't know how his karmic propensity bundle (stored in a higher dimensional soul) remains or continues. But he doesn't need to, knowing "he" is Infinite Reality is enough. Even a soul is a highly sophisticated illusion/dream-stuff/relative processes/cause effect. There are for sure areas in Infinite Consciousness that don't work or need "soul-mechanisms" and so on. But all of that is dreamt/experienced by One Infinite Reality. And realizing that beyond any possible doubt is the summum bonum. Besides that, there is only illusion of different flavours/mechanisms.

So in the end, its all dreams. Some just incoherent dreams at night, then dreams like Astral realms (no background-story like in a dream, not hazy), and then normal eartly life (which is just a highly coherent dream with physical,chemical, biological, cultural/mental laws) and so on. But still a dream. All made out of appearances/dream stuff/suchness. Artem calls that material/physical,but its still just appearance/illusion.

Maybe that helps. 

Selling Water by the River

 

PS: Don't blame me in case Artem (or anybody else for that matter) decides to have a character-hangover, go womanizing, build a cult, take financial advantage or any of the other of the funny (or less than funny) stuff that tends to happen if there are "character-hangovers" and Ken Wilbers wake up, grow up, show up has not been fully implemented. Here is a nice list of stuff that can get f****** up and will get f****** up, also by enlightened ones: https://www.spiritual-integrity.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Association-for-Spiritual-Integrity-Code-of-Ethics-for-Organizations-May-23-2024.docx-1.pdf

The other side: If every enlightened one would be a saint, I guess it would get boring at some point. So Spirit decided to add that little flavour and spice complexity for the journey back home... 

Calling "Caveat Emptor" while SELLING Water by the River  

Edited June 22 by Water by the River

[Water by the River]

19 hours ago, emil1234 said:

frank and artem both reject oneness. 

From what I have seen/read, they both state "Infinite Reality". Totality of Existence in Artems language. And more than enough Infinity in Franks language.

I personally prefer another style of language, but I don't have the impression they reject oneness, or Infinite Reality, or Nondual boundless Being.

True Nonduality is Oneness. And to throw away the concept of Oneness: One without a second.