Iranian Woman speaks about Islamic and Socialist Imperialism

[Raze]

6 hours ago, BlueOak said:

@Raze

Are both sides (all countries on this planet) responsible for what happens to one. Yes, finally, it gets reflected to me; that’s exactly how it works on Earth. Nothing is in a vacuum; every action of every country shifts things for the others and directly creates what comes next, especially in its immediate neighbors or geopolitical opponents created by duality. If people realized this, we’d have a better functioning global system without fear of ‘globalism', which exists anyway; people recoil from the idea they are not directly responsible for every decision they take. In truth, they are always part of a pattern; you and I are right now.

On Israel:

The more radical elements of the government require war and fear to sustain themselves. I’ve covered that all far-right governments are functionally similar in that respect. I don’t believe anyone thought the scale would be this because the fallout from fostering that violence was devastating for both.

On Hamas:

Hamas is a gang of teenagers; the average age in Gaza is 18:
1) https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/
2) https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-11-14/population-religion-and-poverty-the-demographics-of-israel-and-gaza - 40% of it was 14.

You can bet that it will be younger for men in a conflict zone, and younger since the war. Thousands of teenagers were organized into a strike. You are telling me you think it likely that the people behind the militia didn’t know about it? Either they failed monumentally in their leadership role to report on, influence, or control their proxy forces, or you're mistaken. Like most involved countries, Iran will have agents in that region right now.

1. Intelligent agents know about an army about to strike, let alone a militia. See America and England’s warning to Ukraine.

2, Have you met teenagers or tried to organize them to do anything at any time? It’s a nightmare; they can’t sit still, they want to tell everyone what they are doing, there’d be messages all over the place, and it’d be near impossible not to know. This is not 5 friends getting together to cause violence or mischief, it's a large force being pulled in at once.

You are intelligent; if you deduce from the above the apparent implication of that statement on other countries and their intelligence services, yes, you’ll be right. Not to say any of them could stop it when it was in motion, but to claim everyone was in the dark over a known flashpoint is so improbable to me that I cannot believe it. I also would expect nobody to know the scale of it properly or what would happen next. This is a conjecture, however, so you can dismiss it at will.

Instead, we can say Iran and Israel (and every other far-right government around the world) foster the conditions for conflict to occur so they can stay in power and leave it at that. You telling me America’s far-right government ripped up the nuclear deal only makes the previous statement more likely, not less. I’m not playing favorites here; the entire world shifted right and continues to do so; this is the natural implication of it: conflict.

As for you saying countries react differently, yes. They react according to their ability and goals. America’s was a profit and a democratic world order. Iran’s is an Islamic Caliphate. Russia’s is the restoration of the USSR. Europe’s is maintaining its financial hegemony. China is One China, securing as much of the surrounding territory as possible and trade connections overseas. BRICS goals, as a whole, are replacing the Western world order. NATO’s goal is to secure democratic prosperity and security. Africa has goals, Asia has goals, South America has goals. All of these goals are not above threatening other countries to achieve them, but recognizing them as existing is crucial to achieving if not peace, then at least lasting stability,

1. Gaza having a young population isn’t proof Hamas is teenagers who can’t organize, their are adults in Gaza and hamas is run by adults. Here are the leaders of hamas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Deif

2. Iran isn’t behind Hamas, just supports them. They have other funding sources and Iran doesn’t fully control them, for example they had a brief falling out with Iran when Hamas backed militias opposing Assad who Iran supported. Yes, it’s completely believable Hamas wouldn’t tell Iran their plot as that risks it getting leaked.

3. the US doesn’t uniformly support democratic world order, the US has regularly supported dictators and overthrown democracies in its history

 

Edited June 7 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze The Iranian regime aspires to eliminate Israel. You don't need to be pro Israel to think that, just to listen to their statements directly.

Edited June 7 by Nivsch

[Raze]

13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze The Iranian regime aspires to eliminate Israel. You don't need to be pro Israel to think that, just to listen to their statements directly.

1. That’s largely bluster they backtrack from

https://archive.is/LvuYA

2. Iran doesn’t have capability to destroy Israel directly and their military strategy is analyzed as defensive instead focusing on leaving offense to small rebel groups they try to influence and fund, their only ability to destroy Israel would be getting nuclear weapons, yet they offered to turn the Middle East into a nuclear free zone, Israel rejected it, made a nuclear deal with the USA, but the US dropped it after pressure from Israel, and still they haven’t made nukes

3. Israel heads of state regularly try to lobby the USA to attack and destroy Iran like they did Iraq

4. what is far worse than threatening to destroy a country is actually doing it, which Israel has been doing to Palestine and it is their official position to reject the two state solution, which Iran supports.

[Nivsch]

@Raze Iran arms hamas and hezbollah and funded terror actions against Israelis abroad.

They (the regime) want to choke Israel from all directions to eventually eliminate it.

Edited June 7 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

40 minutes ago, Raze said:

1. Gaza having a young population isn’t proof Hamas is teenagers who can’t organize, their are adults in Gaza and hamas is run by adults. Here are the leaders of hamas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Deif

2. Iran isn’t behind Hamas, just supports them. They have other funding sources and Iran doesn’t fully control them, for example they had a brief falling out with Iran when Hamas backed militias opposing Assad who Iran supported. Yes, it’s completely believable Hamas wouldn’t tell Iran their plot as that risks it getting leaked.

3. the US doesn’t uniformly support democratic world order, the US has regularly supported dictators and overthrown democracies in its history

 

1, Yes, the leaders are adults, as is the case with most armed forces of any nature.

There is little proof of anything in a militia or irregular force; however, the data indicates you are wrong.  Again, 40% of Gazans were 14 years old, and the median age was 18 before the war; this will be skewed lower for males in a conflict zone. Therefore, any fighting militia force taken from the population will be of that age on average. I am happy to read or see if you have data that says otherwise. If not, I will draw logical deductions over your feelings or opinions, with no offense intended. 

If you want to dismiss this as data speculative, fine, but they are still a militia force, and any movement or organization of a large force, especially a disorganized one, will involve much communication and planning. That's just how it works; people don't all mass one day, press a button, and everyone arrives armed and ready on the spot on the same day at the same time, with the same plan.

2, Iran has different levels of influence over its proxies; they arm and use Hamas to exert their influence over the region:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_support_for_Hamas
https://theconversation.com/how-much-influence-does-iran-have-over-its-proxy-axis-of-resistance-hezbollah-hamas-and-the-houthis-221269

I am genuinely surprised you are making this particular argument, but if you are, please, by all means, link some sources that are beyond your personal opinion; perhaps you have information I don't, and if so, I'd be glad to hear it.

Who arms and trains Hamas:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/26/1208866508/irans-foreign-minister-on-the-hamas-attack-and-the-war-that-has-followed
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-weapons-rockets.html
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-guns-weapons-missiles-smuggling-adae9dae4c48059d2a3c8e5d565daa30

These sorts of articles and sources can be pulled forever.

3. Yes, but democracies prefer democracies. When they can create them, they do, but they'll settle for dictators aligned with them if not just to deny an opponent. Generally, people in this world try to make it like they are rather than accept it for what it is.

Edited June 7 by BlueOak

[Raze]

11 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

1, Yes, the leaders are adults, as is the case with most armed forces of any nature.

There is little proof of anything in a militia or irregular force; however, the data indicates you are wrong.  Again, 40% of Gazans were 14 years old, and the median age was 18 before the war; this will be skewed lower for males in a conflict zone. Therefore, any fighting militia force taken from the population will be of that age on average. I am happy to read or see if you have data that says otherwise. If not, I will draw logical deductions over your feelings or opinions, with no offense intended. 

If you want to dismiss this as data speculative, fine, but they are still a militia force, and any movement or organization of a large force, especially a disorganized one, will involve much communication and planning. That's just how it works; people don't mass one day, press a button, and everyone arrives armed and ready on the spot on the same day at the same time, with the same plan.

 

What is the evidence Hamas is primarily composed of teenagers? Yes, the median age of Gaza is young, that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of adults in Gaza who work for Hamas. Half of Gaza is women, but Hamas doesn’t have women in combat roles.

The only evidence I found was this 2001 report which indicates Hamas did not generally use child soldiers.

https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736#:~:text=There have been reports of,not to date included children.

They recruit minors, but that doesn’t mean minors make up their combat troops.

11 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

 

2, Iran has different levels of influence over its proxies; they arm and use Hamas to exert their influence over the region:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_support_for_Hamas
https://theconversation.com/how-much-influence-does-iran-have-over-its-proxy-axis-of-resistance-hezbollah-hamas-and-the-houthis-221269

I am genuinely surprised you are making this particular argument, but if you are, please, by all means, link some sources that are beyond your personal opinion; perhaps you have information I don't, and if so, I'd be glad to hear it.

Who arms and trains Hamas:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/26/1208866508/irans-foreign-minister-on-the-hamas-attack-and-the-war-that-has-followed
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-weapons-rockets.html
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-guns-weapons-missiles-smuggling-adae9dae4c48059d2a3c8e5d565daa30

These sorts of articles and sources can be pulled forever.

 

That doesn’t go against my argument. There is a difference between being behind a organization, and supporting it. This is support, Iran provides funding and training. That doesn’t mean they directly control what Hamas decides to do.

11 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

3. Yes, but democracies prefer democracies. When they can create them, they do, but they'll settle for dictators aligned with them if not just to deny an opponent. Generally, people in this world try to make it like they are rather than accept it for what it is.

So that indicates the US’s main motivation is not global democratic values but rather global influence / power

Edited June 7 by Raze

[BlueOak]

Just now, Raze said:

What is the evidence Hamas is primarily composed of teenagers? Yes, the median age of Gaza is young, that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of adults in Gaza who work for Hamas.

The only evidence I found was this 2001 report which indicates Hamas did not generally use child soldiers.

https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736#:~:text=There have been reports of,not to date included children.

They recruit minors, but that doesn’t mean minors make up their combat troops.

That doesn’t go against my argument. There is a difference between being behind a organization, and supporting it. This is support, Iran provides funding and training. That doesn’t mean they directly control what Hamas decides to do.

So that indicates the US’s main motivation is not global democratic values but rather global influence / power

If Hamas doesn't do what Iran wants, Iran will stop arming, training, and funding it. It won't support an organization that doesn't align with its interests. Iran's whole approach is to use these proxies to maintain its influence over the region, thus distancing itself while simultaneously achieving its goals.

Thank you for the article on Hamas; it was informative. Your article highlights 12-15 as children but shies away from directly saying it:

Generally, Hamas considers 16 to be an adult, so this still aligns with teenagers being the bulk of the force, as the average was 18 or lower for males in the region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

Major Palestinian armed groups, including Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas, have publicly disavowed the use of children in military operations, but those stated policies have not always been implemented. Some leaders, including representatives of Islamic Jihad and Hamas, have said that they consider children of 16 to be adults. International law defines a child as any person under the age of eighteen. [...] Israeli government policy in the Occupied Territories defines Palestinians under the age of 16 as minors while Israeli children in the same territories are considered minors until they reach the age of 18.[1]

However, it does indicate those younger than 16 would be in non-combat roles for the most part.

The US's primary goal is money, maintaining trade connections, and the dollar underwriting world currency. The USA foreign policy is essentially Stage Orange personified. They do this by creating countries that are friendly to this policy, essentially democracies, when possible because they share similar values and encourage stable economic development in their trading partners. Some countries can't sustain a democracy, but they can still block their rival's influence by picking the right leader (and still buying their guns or products/contracts).

[Raze]

Just now, BlueOak said:

If Hamas doesn't do what Iran wants, Iran will stop arming, training, and funding it. It won't support an organization that doesn't align with its interests. Iran's whole approach is to use these proxies to maintain its influence over the region, thus distancing itself while simultaneously achieving its goals.

Thank you for the article on Hamas; it was informative. Your article highlights 12-15 as children but shies away from directly saying it:

Generally, Hamas considers 16 to be an adult, so this still aligns with teenagers being the bulk of the force, as the average was 18 or lower for males in the region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups
 

However, it does indicate those younger than 16 would be in non-combat roles for the most part.

The US's primary goal is money, maintaining trade connections, and the dollar underwriting world currency. The USA foreign policy is essentially Stage Orange personified. They do this by creating countries that are friendly to this policy, essentially democracies, when possible because they share similar values and encourage stable economic development in their trading partners. Some countries can't sustain a democracy, but they can still block their rival's influence by picking the right leader (and still buying their guns or products/contracts).

1. Ok, but where does that lead to concluding it’s obvious Iran told Hamas to do Oct 7?

2. Ultimately this doesn’t show Hamas troops are so young they need Iran to organize them.

[BlueOak]

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

1. Ok, but where does that lead to concluding it’s obvious Iran told Hamas to do Oct 7?

2. Ultimately this doesn’t show Hamas troops are so young they need Iran to organize them.

1, Because all far-right governments or leadership require an opponent to exist. If these regions settle down, those in them will lose power or influence. So either Iran directly planned this or created the conditions for it to exist (alongside all other involved actors). If it is the latter, they had a massive failure on their end. Having missed this huge movement of manpower, logistics, and planning without their knowledge. So much so, it begs the question: why are they still supporting them now? Answer: Because it aligns with their interests to do so.

2, Having a large number of teenagers in their ranks. I was using their age, their more disorganized militia nature, and the fact that any large action in a region as heavily watched as this one, makes the case of how unlikely it is would have escaped everyone's notice. I suppose I could choose to believe everyone is incompetent instead.

Edited June 7 by BlueOak

[Raze]

16 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

1, Because all far-right governments or leadership require an opponent to exist. If these regions settle down, those in them will lose power or influence. So either Iran directly planned this or created the conditions for it to exist (alongside all other involved actors). If it is the latter, they had a massive failure on their end. Having missed this huge movement of manpower, logistics, and planning without their knowledge. So much so, it begs the question: why are they still supporting them now? Answer: Because it aligns with their interests to do so.

2, Having a large number of teenagers in their ranks. I was using their age, their more disorganized militia nature, and the fact that any large action in a region as heavily watched as this one, makes the case of how unlikely it is would have escaped everyone's notice. I suppose I could choose to believe everyone is incompetent instead.

1. If the argument is Iran generally funds Hamas to oppose Israel no one would argue with you, but jumping from that to they specifically planned October 7 is a huge leap and could be used to justify regional war

2. Israel and US military also have young people in their ranks, but not in leadership positions. What makes you think Hamas is disorganized? They were organized enough to avoid their plot being leaked from inside, organized enough for most of their leaders and hostages to avoid capture after nearly a year of war.

Its not incompetence from Iran if they didn’t see Oct 7 coming, it would make sense given the risks of it leaking or risks for Iran if it got credibly pinned on them. 

Yes, everyone is incompetent. Gazans are the most monitored population in the world by Israel yet they got surprised by them using hand gliders and bulldozers. Iranian commanders and scientists get assassinated constantly despite knowing the US and Israel is hunting them. A huge portion of IDF casualties are by friendly fire and accidents with no Hamas involvement in this war. The US overthrew Saddam claiming it would stop terrorists like Al Queda and it allowed Al Queda to expand to Iraq where they weren’t previously and allowed Iran to expand its influence and proxy groups. Israel transferred funds to Hamas and blocked their attempts to bring the PLO into Gaza strengthening their armed wing. The US tried to overthrow Assad but just made him dependent on Iran and Russia, and forced millions of refugees into Europe. They are mostly all highly corrupt, religious fundamentalist, or stupid and literally millions of lives hang in the balance of their decisions.

Edited June 7 by Raze

[BlueOak]

32 minutes ago, Raze said:

1. If the argument is Iran generally funds Hamas to oppose Israel no one would argue with you, but jumping from that to they specifically planned October 7 is a huge leap and could be used to justify regional war

2. Israel and US military also have young people in their ranks, but not in leadership positions. What makes you think Hamas is disorganized?

Its not incompetence from Iran if they didn’t see Oct 7 coming, it would make sense given the risks of it leaking or risks for Iran if it got credibly pinned on them. 

Yes, everyone is incompetent. Gazans are the most monitored population in the world by Israel yet they got surprised by them. Iranian commanders and scientists get assassinated constantly despite knowing the US and Israel is hunting them. Tons of IDF have been killed by friendly fire and accidents with no Hamas involvement in this war. The US overthrew Saddam claiming it would stop terrorists like Al Queda and it allowed Al Queda to expand to Iraq where they weren’t previously and allowed Iran to expand its influence. The US tried to overthrow Assad but failed, made him dependent on Iran and Russia, and forced millions of refugees into Europe.

1, Let me take your perspective and then offer a simplified question to it:

I provide a burglar(person) I know to be looking at your home with tools, information about your home, some training to break in but not a specific time or day, and limited cover after he's done. Am I responsible for the robbery? You may argue the burglar(person) had many reasons, so I will say I unconditionally agree with any reasons you state here before you do. I could also take this a bit further and say I had a hand in the criminals(people) having that identity in the first place, because I want the area's property value lower or, more accurately, to be in my favor.

If it helps to unbias this analogy, dropping 'criminals' and 'burglars' to say 'people' in its place, the point remains the same. If Iran did not directly plan this, they helped set the conditions for it to happen, provided the training and tools, stoked fanaticism, and pushed a new Islamic imperialism not only into the region but also aligned with BRICS to topple Western world power.

The best you will come back with is others do this too. I will answer yes. The only way to change it is to highlight that everyone does it, and it's a flaw in all global interactions, rather than excusing it or pretending it's not happening. It's not about sides but the human need to create an opponent and use it to make destructive foreign policy or geopolitical gains.

2. It's a militia force; it takes a lot of training, preparation, and a strong officer core to form a disciplined, organized force; no soldier is disciplined without it. In this execution, they fundamentally underestimated the response they got. If anyone with any planning or sense were in charge of that operation, they would have seen this response a mile away. The first thing the person next to me said when this happened was that Gaza was going to be leveled. It didn't take a genius to see it.

You can't have it both ways. You can't tell me Iran is not incompetent while also saying everyone is incompetent, which is it?

If you are arming, training, and supporting a large proxy force to exert your influence over an area, and it goes on a rampage of mass murder, taking hostages in one of the biggest acts of terror I have ever seen, and you miss the organizing, planning, and logistics of the operation, you are incompetent. That word is insufficient; you are grossly negligent, bordering on incapable. 

Anyone can be assassinated; anyone can get hit with friendly fire, especially in an urban warzone. US foreign policy goals in the Middle East are brain-dead. The US lost in Syria to BRICS. As for intelligence services worldwide, not knowing an attack was coming? I covered that. Let's call it speculative and leave it at that.

Edited June 7 by BlueOak