Can we define an awakening once and for all

[Sugarcoat]

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Awakening is a radical and often sudden change in how you experience the world on a moment-to-moment level. The type of awakening which is probably most referenced is awakening to Oneness or non-duality, which coincides with the loss of self-referential thinking and experience of self in space and time, reflected in the deactivation of the Default Mode Network (DMN).

Spiritual transformation is when the awakening creates a lasting but incomplete change where some parts of yourself will never be the same. Your first awakening tends to coincide with a spiritual transformation. This coincides with a lasting relative deactivation of the DMN.

Enlightenment is when the awakened state becomes your new baseline, i.e. what you operate from most of the time (~90% of the time). After many awakenings in different ways and contexts, the tower topples over and flips. And again, this coincides with a lasting and more significant deactivation of the DMN.

Your enlightened state might refine over time in subtle ways, maybe filling in the remaining 10% and eventually eliminating self-referential thinking altogether, or through more embodied manifestations (purifying egoic responses/behavioral patterns, contractions, "defilements").

I used awakening to non-duality to illustrate each term, but you can substitute it with any type of awakening; awakening to God, Love, even intellectual awakenings; but of course, the terms are less commonly used in this way. An example of an intellectually focused (or moral) spiritual transformation I had was the transition from a hedonistic to a eudaimonic value system.

I like to make connections to neurology too in this area. I for example have a self centered brain so a lot of self referential thinking so that DMN being very active probably I’ve read about it a little. 
 That’s why I was curious where my “experience “ (it was so profound and permanent and all encompassing yet subtle ) falls . I feel my situation is unique maybe so it’s hard to pin point. From your definition my experience doesn’t fit since I dont recognize the non duality although I still intuit it somehow so it’s weird. 

 

 

[Sugarcoat]

4 hours ago, Norbert Somogyi said:

I don't have a direct awakening experience so I am a little hesitant to respond here, but here is my take.

The word de-fine can be used to mark the boundaries of something (amongst other things). This is like the antithesis of the infinitude of awakening, kind of like an impossible request. Isn't it?

You have a point especially with non dual stuff. I’m open with my question here so im not expecting to reach a final conclusion but just hear others experience to better understand where mine falls 

[Sugarcoat]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is something totally simple, it is realizing what you are. What you are is not definable, since it is the reality, and reality is the absence of limits. It is not realizing the fact that you are infinite, but what infinite is, what it has always been and will always be.

The infinite, as is obvious, takes infinite forms, it cannot not do so, since if it did not, it would be finite. What we are right now is one of those forms, so enlightenment is realizing what you are by going through the form, which is a relative, cyclical appearance of the infinite.

Enlightenment is that the infinite perceives itself through the form, and with this it stops being a prisoner of the form and frees itself. The infinite is conscious and total, although impersonal, since it does not have a center of perception, so it is difficult to let go of the self, the center, so that the infinite perceives itself without any obstacle. If there is any obstacle, perception will be distorted and deceptive, infinity will be perceived as form, god, whatever.

Infinity is nothing and is the potential of everything, and is perfect, complete and total. The word enlightenment evokes the light that the opening of the structure of form allows you to flood the dimension of existence that you are right now. You can call this light love or whatever

I resonate with a lot of what you write and I do seem to intuit these things as I wrote in another post. I have no problem with conceptualizing so my point with this post was to kind  of better understand my own shift which was so profound for me. You gave a very clear description there .  It’s a bit tricky where the sense of self can fit in this, how come I can seemingly intuit what you write but still have this sense of self which is now radically different than it was prior to my shift. It’s like “open” now . Unbound by the mind , just a brain , if I’m gonna bring neurology into this. 
 

 

Edited June 5 by Sugarcoat

[James123]

21 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I resonate with a lot of what you write and I do seem to intuit these things as I wrote in another post. I have no problem with conceptualizing so my point with this post was to kind  of better understand my own shift which was so profound for me. You gave a very clear description there .  It’s a bit tricky where the sense of self can fit in this, how come I can seemingly intuit what you write but still have this sense of self which is now radically different than it was prior to my shift. It’s like “open” now . Unbound by the mind , just a brain , if I’m gonna bring neurology into this. 
 

 

Enlightenment is so simple, because you are already. Just drop of the knowledge that you have learned, including your birth. What is left after that?

[koops]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

It’s tricky yet simple. Also difference if someone is talking from direct experience vs heard from teachings and others. 

Yes, but even people talking form experience.

Imagine Leo, Ralston, Spira, Tolle, and Shinzen talking about it.

They would still disagree.

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, James123 said:

Enlightenment is so simple, because you are already. Just drop of the knowledge that you have learned, including your birth. What is left after that?

Yes but a openness is needed. I ve not that openness right now, there is some contraction.

Let's say that right now my psyche closes. It's not that I'm thinking I'm a human blah blah, it's something energetic. I know because I have experienced complete opening several times, and partial opening more and more often, but don't be too quick to think: I have it. No, it is more than that, it is a total energetic change that requires a complete restructuring of the psyche. Maybe in 1000 hours of meditation I will get it totally, could be, but not sure

Edited June 5 by Breakingthewall

[James123]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but a openness is needed. I ve not that openness right now, there is some contraction.

Let's say that right now my psyche closes. It's not that I'm thinking I'm a human blah blah, it's something energetic. I know because I have experienced complete opening several times, and partial opening more and more often, but don't be too quick to think: I have it. No, it is more than that, it is a total energetic change that requires a complete restructuring of the psyche. Maybe in 1000 hours of meditation I will get it totally, could be, but not sure

What can be more deeper / openness than not knowing? 

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, James123 said:

What can be more deeper / openness than not knowing? 

That is in the realm of the mental. Well, you have transcended the attachment to the mind, step 1. This is nothing more than the beginning, what you are is a cosmic evolutionary energetic pattern, an idea of the infinite with enormous possibilities of perception. obviously no conceptual perception. The dimension of existence that you are can open to deeper levels.

[James123]

26 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That is in the realm of the mental. Well, you have transcended the attachment to the mind, step 1. This is nothing more than the beginning, what you are is a cosmic evolutionary energetic pattern, an idea of the infinite with enormous possibilities of perception. obviously no conceptual perception. The dimension of existence that you are can open to deeper levels.

What I did realize is, cosmos is pure love, literally pure love. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

Can it be defined? I recently began thinking that it is not possible to put it into concepts and grasp it with this mind. This mind is too limited to understand something so grand and multidimensional.  
 

and even all that I wrote above might be wrong. I have no clue wtf is hapenning. 

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

From your definition my experience doesn’t fit since I dont recognize the non duality although I still intuit it somehow so it’s weird. 

But non-duality awakening was only one example (I edited the post now to make it a little more clear). The general definition of awakening (or spiritual transformation) still fits I think. 

Edited June 5 by Carl-Richard

[Keryo Koffa]

1 hour ago, James123 said:

Enlightenment is so simple, because you are already. Just drop of the knowledge that you have learned, including your birth. What is left after that?

When you say "drop the knowledge" I see many layers of that: do you mean my ideas, directed thoughts, stories? Does it go further to get a similar feeling when I was little, a lack of self-reference, the not knowing that vision is vision and a thing in itself but being engaged in activity without knowing the senses to be senses but instead operating with everything as direct experience? Beyond that, does it include feeling, doing, wanting, acting out an innate inner desire for action? Beyond that, does it include the awareness of existence itself and dropping it as well? I'm going back through my life towards my birth letting go of what I think you might be referring to and dropping every idea, perception, awareness. Is it a state of deep not knowing and inability to make sense? Is it nothingness or is it some retroactive higher understanding and context that arises when going meta instead?

[James123]

47 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

When you say "drop the knowledge" I see many layers of that: do you mean my ideas, directed thoughts, stories? Does it go further to get a similar feeling when I was little, a lack of self-reference, the not knowing that vision is vision and a thing in itself but being engaged in activity without knowing the senses to be senses but instead operating with everything as direct experience? Beyond that, does it include feeling, doing, wanting, acting out an innate inner desire for action? Beyond that, does it include the awareness of existence itself and dropping it as well? I'm going back through my life towards my birth letting go of what I think you might be referring to and dropping every idea, perception, awareness. Is it a state of deep not knowing and inability to make sense? Is it nothingness or is it some retroactive higher understanding and context that arises when going meta instead?

When you genuinely not know, literally not know anything, including yourself, what is left?

[Someone here]

An insight into the nature of something. 

[enchanted]

On 6/4/2024 at 8:54 AM, Sugarcoat said:

 

So what's the verdict? Can we agree on a definition finally?

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, enchanted said:

So what's the verdict? Can we agree on a definition finally?

Whose gonna be the judge.

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, James123 said:

Enlightenment is so simple, because you are already. Just drop of the knowledge that you have learned, including your birth. What is left after that?

There's only a you because of the knowledge you have of yourself, so there's no you to drop the knowledge because you and knowledge are the same thing. What's left is a body functioning without the you.

Edited June 5 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, James123 said:

When you genuinely not know, literally not know anything, including yourself, what is left?

The you cannot "not" know itself.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, James123 said:

When you genuinely not know, literally not know anything, including yourself, what is left?

Are you aware of the depth and the glory of existence? Are you sure that there is absolutely nothing blocking your structure? Some pain? Some fear? Some sadness? Some narcissism? Some longing? Are you perfect, like a Ararat? above the human condition, completely indifferent to what is human, to loneliness, to not belonging? Are you a saint who is in permanent communion with the divine, through which living intelligence flows and shines in you until it blinds you? You are one with God and your heart is divine light? oh really? because I am a thousand km away from that, for me there are openess that fluctuates. maybe you don't understand the scope of what existence is

Edited June 5 by Breakingthewall

[UnbornTao]

Depends on what you're talking about. Generally, it is simply becoming conscious directly of the nature of an absolute aspect of existence. Either that, or you could hold it as a relative process, such as having an insight into a dynamic, principle, or condition -- "awakening" to the reality or origin of something in a way that is authentic and based on experience.