Are there Psychedelics that are Not Stimulating/Exhausting to the Nervous System ?

[BlurryBoi]

For example, LSD, THC, 2CB, Shrooms, and i assume all the DMT variants seem to consume/activate a lot of energy, wich is a problem when you're stuck with chronic burnout and other exhausting illness.

 

Correct me if im wrong but i think awakenings/psychedelics experiences like realising Love can also happen in a low energetical way.

 

It seems Ketamine would be a good answer, but its not really a psychedelic nor a great molecule for Love.

Maybe some specific strands of Cannabis, but i'm not sure about that.

 

Thanks in advance 

[LambdaDelta]

They do? That's usually not the case, but energy shenanigans can certainly take place. Perhaps it's precisely your chronic burnouts that make you unable to handle these experiences without feeling drained. Tryptamines are pretty gentle overall, especially the 4-sub ones. 

[Leo Gura]

Short answer is no. There is no free lunch. All these chemicals deteriorate your brain over time with lots of use. So use them sparingly.

Psychedelics are not free. You are paying for it with your health. Making you grok that. Just because you have an epic loving experience of God does not mean it was healthy for your body. Don't get fooled by that.

Ketamine is certainly not good for you long term.

Edited June 2 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Short answer is no. There is no free lunch. All these chemicals deteriorate your brain over time with lots of use. So use them sparingly.

Psychedelics are not free. You are paying for it with your health. Making you grok that. Just because you have an epic loving experience of God does not mean it was healthy for your body. Don't get fooled by that.

Ketamine is certainly not good for you long term.

There is no evidence, not even anecdotes (I have not found so far and I read probably over 100 trip reports in my life) that plenty usage of LSD deteriorate your brain over time. There was an ama thread on Reddit where a man took 3 years LSD every day (200 micro) and just stopped because it costs too much. No brain damage. Another who took over 1000 hits, also no damage at all:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/dlycy/ive_eaten_over_1000_hits_of_lsd_in_my_lifetime_ama/

 

You can argue those who got brain damage from LSD won't do an ama on Reddit but there are amas on MDMA/Ketamin abuse where people openly talk about their brain damage.

So overall MDMA and Ketamin are well known for brain damage long term. But so far about my research LSD doesn't deteriorate your brain, it just stops working because of tolerance.

Edited June 2 by OBEler

[Davino]

@Leo Gura choose your venom as they say

[bambi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Short answer is no. There is no free lunch. All these chemicals deteriorate your brain over time with lots of use. So use them sparingly.

Psychedelics are not free. You are paying for it with your health. Making you grok that. Just because you have an epic loving experience of God does not mean it was healthy for your body. Don't get fooled by that.

Ketamine is certainly not good for you long term.

I agree with ketamine etc in terms of bladder toxicity, and also pyschologically to dissociate from pain and trauma seems like a fools errand in medium and long term.

However with the 5HT receptor agonists and the D1/2/3/4 agonists, I am extremely interesting to know if they can cause long term damage vs increasing sensitization and receptor cycling. For example parkinson treatment drugs have a simliar effect as LSD on dopamine receptors. Heres a response from GPT:

 

The idea that 5-HT (serotonin) agonists, such as psychedelics, could improve receptor health is an intriguing one, but it requires careful consideration of what is meant by "receptor health" and the context in which these substances are used. Here's a detailed look at the potential impacts of 5-HT agonists on serotonin receptors and overall brain health:

Potential Benefits of 5-HT Agonists

Neuroplasticity:

• Neurogenesis and Synaptogenesis: Some studies suggest that psychedelics like psilocybin and LSD can promote neurogenesis (the growth of new neurons) and synaptogenesis (the formation of new synaptic connections). These processes can contribute to overall brain health and cognitive flexibility.
• BDNF (Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor): Psychedelics have been shown to increase levels of BDNF, a protein that supports the survival of existing neurons and encourages the growth of new neurons and synapses. Increased BDNF levels are associated with improved mood, cognition, and brain resilience.

Receptor Sensitivity and Density:

While chronic use of 5-HT agonists can lead to downregulation (a decrease in receptor density or sensitivity), intermittent or therapeutic use might have different effects. For instance, some evidence suggests that periodic use of psychedelics can "reset" or optimize receptor functioning, potentially improving receptor sensitivity.

Anti-Inflammatory Effects:

Some psychedelics have anti-inflammatory properties, which can contribute to brain health by reducing neuroinflammation. Chronic inflammation in the brain is linked to various neurodegenerative diseases and mental health disorders.

Psychological and Behavioral Benefits:

• Mood and Anxiety Disorders: Clinical studies have shown that psychedelics can be effective in treating depression, anxiety, PTSD, and other mood disorders. By alleviating these conditions, psychedelics may indirectly support brain health by reducing stress and promoting a more positive mental state.
• Cognitive Flexibility: Psychedelics can enhance cognitive flexibility, creativity, and problem-solving skills, which are beneficial for mental health and adaptive behaviors.

Considerations and Risks

Dose and Frequency:

The potential benefits of 5-HT agonists are highly dependent on the dose and frequency of use. Therapeutic and controlled use under medical supervision is more likely to result in positive outcomes than recreational or uncontrolled use.

Individual Variation:

People respond differently to psychedelics, and what might be beneficial for one person could be harmful to another. Factors such as genetics, mental health history, and current psychological state play a significant role in how psychedelics affect the brain.

Tolerance and Downregulation:

Chronic or frequent use of psychedelics can lead to tolerance, where the receptors become less sensitive over time. This could negate some of the potential benefits and might even harm receptor health if use is excessive.

Psychedelic Integration:

The benefits of psychedelics are often maximized when combined with therapeutic practices such as psychotherapy, mindfulness, and behavioral interventions. Simply taking psychedelics without proper integration may not lead to long-term improvements in brain health.

Conclusion

5-HT agonists like psilocybin, LSD, and 5-MeO-DMT have the potential to improve certain aspects of brain health through mechanisms like neuroplasticity, anti-inflammatory effects, and enhanced cognitive flexibility. However, these benefits are highly context-dependent and rely on controlled, therapeutic use. The concept of "receptor health" is complex, and while psychedelics may optimize receptor functioning in some cases, they can also lead to tolerance and downregulation with misuse.

It's essential to approach the use of psychedelics with caution and ideally under professional guidance to maximize potential benefits and minimize risks.

[Leo Gura]

Be careful believing what you want to hear.

[bambi]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Be careful believing what you want to hear.

Just opening it up to discussion, surely we should be discussing and researching this.

Your insinuating that you have personally experienced some negative effects of prolonged use, but are being mysteriously obtuse about it?

[OBEler]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Be careful believing what you want to hear.

I am serious about this topic. If there is any sign that LSD or any other classic psychedelic like shrooms or 5 Meo DMT have really long-term damage over years when massively used please share (although I don't count extraordinary cases where someone really abused the drug in very high dosages or a dangerous combination of drugs).

I would be so glad to hear.

 

The one from ama reddit had flash backs:

"flashbacks ,in my experience, aren't like full on trips that will throw you way off. after doing alot of acid i can say for sure there are flashback like effects. If i'm sitting in a parked car i can sometimes feel and see it moving slowly backwards. it gets scary when you don't expect it the worst visual i have ever had was sitting sober on my couch when my dvd player started sliding out from under a big old fashioned stereo system. once you recognize its not real and shake it off it goes away again."

If that's the only thing that sometimes can happen after 1000 hits of LSD, that's not really an issue. It will probably go away completely if you stop for a year.

Edited June 2 by OBEler

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Short answer is no. There is no free lunch. All these chemicals deteriorate your brain over time with lots of use. So use them sparingly.

Psychedelics are not free. You are paying for it with your health. Making you grok that. Just because you have an epic loving experience of God does not mean it was healthy for your body. Don't get fooled by that.

Ketamine is certainly not good for you long term.

have you tried cerebrolysin?

it is used to mitigate the effects of traumatic brain injury and is hailed in the nootropics community for its effects on neuroplasticity. there have also been many anecdotal accounts of it helping with addiction and issues related to neurochemistry from substance abuse.

[What Am I]

I don't think Leo is saying he thinks LSD is particularly damaging compared to others. I think he's saying the use of any substance that gives such extreme physiological states through a chemical catalyst will take a toll. And on that, I completely agree. If you're truly honest with yourself and conscious of your experience, you can feel the unhealthy drain from even a modest trip. It'd be a mistake to believe our science is in a state where we can comprehend the real ramifications of what we're dealing with. We don't even fully understand how psychedelics create their effect.

So it looks to me like Leo is advising caution and measured restraint as opposed to recklessness, which is really tough to argue.

To answer the question of the thread, I find DMT and 5-MeO-DMT best in this regard. They're certainly energetic, but not nearly as much in the neurotransmitter-draining type of way as some others.

[Soullee]

Remind me of Terrence Mckenna brain tumor

 

maybe with over use you die with bulge on your head

Edited June 2 by Soullee

[LSD-Rumi]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Be careful believing what you want to hear.

Did you feel any negative physical or mental symptoms in the weeks or months after your heroic 30 back to back days of tripping on 5 MEO?

Edited June 2 by LSD-Rumi

[Yimpa]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Be careful believing what you want to hear.

Be careful believing what you don’t want to hear.

[Rigel]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Short answer is no. There is no free lunch. All these chemicals deteriorate your brain over time with lots of use. So use them sparingly.

Psychedelics are not free. You are paying for it with your health. Making you grok that. Just because you have an epic loving experience of God does not mean it was healthy for your body. Don't get fooled by that.

Ketamine is certainly not good for you long term.

Am I correct in assuming that you are speaking from direct experience here? I know your gut health's been deteriorating for a while but you still seem like a sharp dude. Did you experience brain deterioration first hand? Or are you speaking of much more serious abuse to reach those danger thresholds?

[Keryo Koffa]

Since this discussion has turned into the drawbacks of abusing psychedelics, Let's go over this:

1. There is no scientific evidence but science doesn't know anything, all it does it throw around Buzzwords like 5HT-2A Agonist, Default Mode Network Disruption and Interconnection of Brain Areas and that's it, everything else is derived from random speculation based on those and Serotonin being correlated with Good Health and Mood.

2. People experience Great Trips, Awful Trips, HPPD, etc. and all we  hear is that it's "Psychological", since science doesn't find any "physical anomalies". From all we know it's just our reaction to our mental blocks based on our level of self-acceptance, self-understanding and sense making of the nuance we encounter. Taking heroic doses might get us into states where the observed is changed and modulated as much as the observer, so one faces temporary amnesia, mania, panic, etc., states of mind become externalized and one might lose their sense of self and understanding, as the neurons responsible for maintaining awareness are overflooded and disrupted.

3. Based on many experiences of transcendent states, there is something resembling Kundalini Awakening, where massive amounts of energy flow through the body, breaking barriers, resistance and might be too much for the body to handle. Leo talked about this in one of his videos where it felt like there was lightning shooting through his fingertips, burning them slightly, due to this massive release. This part is important and I experienced it in many ways as well, having so much energy and being so overwhelmed by sensory stimulation that it's uncomfortable. I wasn't prepared at the time and wanted it to stop, I did not progress as much as I could and it brought about some suffering. There is something to be said of going beyond your limits similar to lifting weights beyond your range and hurting yourself in the process, you need to build yourself up towards it and rest afterwards.

4. Leo has this idea of equivalent exchange, but it can be seen from a billion perspectives. Why isn't our life perfect? Have we done something wrong? Have we not suffered enough? Is it meant to be bad? Is it our limiting beliefs? This mindset doesn't allow any growth, it's a zero sum game. According to that, we can never make any progress because we end up with something else that's equally bad regardless. Letting go of ego, becoming more selfless, maybe the trade off is exactly the emotional labor, forgiveness, giving up on hedonistic pursuits, constant striving for self-understanding and compassion, having to take responsibility and work. Maybe psychedelic ego-death and facing a bad trip and emptiness that is giving up on your identity is exactly the trade off and that's all there is to it? Maybe we're inventing reasons not to do psychedelics because we feel it's too easy compared to the survival we've been accustomed to? Maybe it's avoiding self-deception, maybe it's the fact they're illegal, maybe it's facing the hardships of change and transience, maybe it's the responsibility of integrating the trips. The argument of "They don't come for free" is an assumption, a reasonable doubt based on life experience, but it's creating a premise a priori and trying to prove it right, circular logic. Sorry for the rant but it's basically saying that a kid made to suffer all his life through apathy and lack of autonomy and purpose choosing to end his life has an equivalent experience to a joyful kid travelling around the world, learning about himself and others and living an amazing life is equivalent because "everything has a trade off". Maybe its learning the meaning of suffering or appreciation etc. and maybe there's reincarnation or god has a plan for both, but come on Leo, I know the way you speak in your video about Responsibility, shaming victim mentality and telling us to have a life purpose and live a most fulfilling life of resilience and selflessness and how contemptful you look at those who drink their life away.

5. "Have you considered the alternative interpretation" that activating your brain like that can lead to a healthy engagement in real life activities and brain function that increases lifespan, quality of life and appreciation for reality, health and the actual reason why such is not the default is because of our faulty self-sabotaging cultural paradigms, self-deception and self-worth problems that are all corrected by gaining a higher perspective and being overfilled by love through the healing experience?

6. Tolerance exists and I myself experience anhedonia on the next day somewhat like a hang over. But I actually learned to appreciate it for giving me a perspective not tied to any one thing and taking a step back where nothing has meaning but that lets me be more objective and detached during.

7. It's hard to sleep

8. You can become psychologically addicted to transcendent states that you cannot recreate naturally and rely on psychedelics for happiness, you may also withdraw from life if you don't integrate your lessons or use them as escapism, but that's true with any addiction and psychedelics usually compensate for that by giving you ever worse trips until you get your shit together.

9. There's a non-zero percent chance that you become an actual alien, gain psychic abilities, or hallucinate yourself away

[What Am I]

@Keryo Koffa impressive analysis. I especially appreciate #3. It's so often overlooked because it's so esoteric and unacknowledged as a reality.

[Keryo Koffa]

@BlurryBoi Ketamine and other Dissociatives, if used responsibly in moderate doses are actually an amazing tool. Instead of expanding your perspective and shooting massive waves of energy through you, it relaxes your mind and body and externalizes your attachments, so you can view them from the outside. Your intuition is hypercharged, you do things naturally using your intuition more so than conscious thought. You are more in tune with your authentic self, but unlike psychedelics, instead of perceiving and understanding it, you simply become it. It kind of feels like you're on autopilot to some degree. This can become an addiction if you don't focus on understanding and integration, but it's a huge relief and you can simply be yourself without judgements, those are stripped away from you, you get to experience what being at peace is like. It's important though to find out exactly why that is not your default state and figure out what is blocking you and what events in your life made you that way. I recommend IFS Therapy, you don't need to visit a therapist, just learn about the concept and work through it yourself. It did wonders for me.

Dangers: Like alcohol, your mind can become incoherent in higher doses, just like any other class of drugs, benzos, opiates or heroic psychedelics doses you can become overwhelmed and dissociated enough that you temporarily forget who you are, where you are, etc. and can do nothing beyond lying around daydreaming, not being able to make sense of your environment. This is not to discourage you, just like with every other drug, be careful.

Double check and read trip reports and dosages, though as long as you stay within the dose range on the Psychonaut Wiki, you should be fine, start small and get a sense of the experience. My first time was confusing and disorienting, uncomfortable, like an alcohol buzz. My second was also weird, but I gained an appreciation for the intuitive auto-pilot and absence of the perfectionism that was stifling my activities. The third time I overdid it and couldn't make sense of my environment, feeling like a lost child in an alien world. After the fourth time, I felt anxious and incompetent for the next two months, because I realized how much my fears had been holding me back my entire life and how little I know about life and how everything works and how open and curious I become on dissociatives. Some following trips made be revert into a vulnerable, sad and afraid child, I needed support, surrounded myself in comfort and watched some movies, taking psychedelics during that trip lead to a full blown psychedelic throat chakra kundalini awakening where I felt like my authentic self for the first time in my life. Lately, one trip led me to anger and mania to transformed my grief and low self-worth into action and passion, self-introspection revealed deep childhood trauma and I grew as much if not more than on psychedelics. At this point, I can do all the things I learned on dissociatives sober, or on light/micro doses, but there's always new things to learn and paradigms to transcend.

I wish you good luck if you do want to try, don't overdo it, but also don't give up to quickly, but also be responsible, but also be intentful and aware and remember my experiences, at least that's the advice i'd give my past self.

[Keryo Koffa]

@What Am I Indeed, at first I thought Kundalini and Psychedelics were completely unrelated, but the more I experience, think and connect the dots, the more I realize how connected everything is. Kundalini is visualized as energy rising through the spine through energy centers. There are Yoga techniques that unlock that wave of energy, both through body exercises and meditation.

But really, one has to see that Kundalini is everywhere, the flow state, great athletic effect, cold exposure, shamanic breathing, meditation, psychedelics, dissociatives, cannabis, stimulants, anything that creates a sense of meaning and power within you, anything that releases energy barriers, anything that empowers you or makes you go all out, or sets you free, it's all interconnected. On my last psychedelic trip, I started doing yoga spontaneously, I pressed myself into different positions to become as flexible as possible, I started cracking my spine as I crack my fingers, releasing the building up stiffness, it's like memory is saved in that stiffness or spine itself and engaging it, movement, running, a cold plunge, being authentic with oneself, prayer specifically confession, physical pain, love, meaningful relationships, life purpose, strong fear, fight or flight, self-control, it's all a form of Kundalini Energy.

The question is how one reacts, how aware one is of it, how one uses it. It's like we have a natural tendency towards comfort and peace. Maybe they themselves are not bad but there is something about the suppression process of living in a society, following rules, being obedient, externalizing status, being polite, playing by the rules that stifles that energy, makes it physically turn into stiffness, stiff bones, stiff muscles, all kinds of diseases and bodily ailments, fat storage, lack of energy, its suppressed energy.

During my last massive trip, I felt like that life energy wanted to be released, like it'd go to waste if I did nothing, like it'd make me sweat and uncomfortable or be saved as stiffness or fat. So I went jogging and took a cold plunge, it felt like I was burning my body away, but in a good way, I wanted to burn all of my physical body away and become free, become a pure energy being and saw all of my body but also all my psychological turmoil as karma to be released, as weights to be let go of, as discomfort and self-suppression to be gotten rid of.

But as I returned home, the trip was ending and my body started adjusting to the ambient temperature and get cold again and I started feeling hungry again. I felt it throughout my life, it's like the energy release when you sit around for a long time and then walk out and start jogging or cycling, it's that immediate sweating and heat that continuous for as long as you keep going, when you stop, you cool down and then it's gone, you can still get into it but now you have to work for it, it doesn't come as naturally as the first time, kind of like glycogen saved up in the body compared to working with ketons, it's pretty interesting really...

[BlurryBoi]

17 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

Perhaps it's precisely your chronic burnouts that make you unable to handle these experiences without feeling drained.

You are actually right on.

This complex phenomenon we simplistically call "Burnout" is not to be underestimated (as we keep doing from ignorance).

 

This is one of those cases where a state takes the stage and corrupts the lense/nexus through wich everything is experienced/digested.

And when you're stuck in it, well you're deep in this stage of quagmire where the threshold to overstimulation is not to be threaded lightly with, as it is closer and closer than you expect.

Thats why people in this situation can't afford to trip like healthy people do (with healthy digestion/regeneration), as it leaves you painfully drained to the bone.

 

But triping can still be crucial to help realise/awaken from toxic Knots you're stuck in, and thats where the search for a Low-Stimulation Psychedelic substance that wont take a toll on this fragile, burnt-out system, is important if it exists. 

Its all basically about finding the right/specific psychedelic substance for you're unique/niche state, 101.

 

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Short answer is no. All these chemicals deteriorate your brain over time with lots of use. So use them sparingly.

Psychedelics are not free. You are paying for it with your health.

Notice he is talking about over/high-use of psychedelics, and of course this is true, this is the principle of Dynamic-Moderation wich applies to most if not all aspects of life.

 

Now notice the context here isnt about finding a fantastic psychedelic that you can do everyday to magically unstimulate/heal you from burnout (as even sleeping pills would deteriorate your health overtime if not used sparingly).

Rather its about finding a psychedelic that has a way of increasing consciousness wich is not through increasing stimulation (im sure its not just about hyper-activation but also inter-connection, wich i hope could also be done in a low-energy way)

Edited June 3 by BlurryBoi