Are there Psychedelics that are Not Stimulating/Exhausting to the Nervous System ?

[Leo Gura]

A sore muscle is not the same.

[Yimpa]

44 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Just to not shit on psychedelics too much, they have absolutely changed my life and helped shed light on the path I need to follow. I don't regret their use, but I wish I had the same understanding in the past that I have now.

The past experiences were necessary for you to now use psychedelics more wisely.

[integral]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A sore muscle is not the same.

So it’s more like having a mini-stroke.

[OBEler]

52 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. Maybe it has something to do with an overload of the energetic system caused by an increased demand via astral projection. Because an overload of that type most certainly does feel shitty.

Sure, so this is a tricky one. I'd be hard-pressed to say that I'm aware of any obvious negative long-term mental effects I've experienced from tripping. It's possible my memories could be slower to recall, or maybe I'm less able to take in and grasp new concepts. It's all so subtle, and it's like I'm trying to judge my mind using my mind, so who could really say.

One thing I've noticed is that the bar has significantly lowered for how easily a rough comedown and hangover can be produced by psychedelics, meaning my brain and body are less resilient to the negative effects. It makes their drawbacks on health much more apparent, and it really forces me to choose my trips carefully. It's this alone that has me so vehemently in agreement with Leo to watch for signals from your body and respond accordingly. For me, the extrapolated risks have become too obvious to ignore.

Just to not shit on psychedelics too much, they have absolutely changed my life and helped shed light on the path I need to follow. I don't regret their use, but I wish I had the same understanding in the past that I have now.

@What Am I thanks for your honest answer. What would you do different in the past with the understanding you have right now? What exactly is the understanding you have? 

Sorry if you already wrote about, could not extract it.

[What Am I]

33 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@What Am I thanks for your honest answer. What would you do different in the past with the understanding you have right now? What exactly is the understanding you have? 

Sorry if you already wrote about, could not extract it.

No problem. The understanding would be how they're not a free ticket.

I remember being extremely zealous about psychedelics, with the strong opinion they were all upsides with virtually no downsides. So with that attitude, I didn't hold anything back in their use. Many years ago, I'd smoke weed everyday and take mushrooms without any concern for spacing out trips. Any other opportunities that showed up, I'd almost certainly choose to partake. And even within the last 5 years, I'd go really heavy on 5-MeO-DMT vape pens with 3 hour sessions. I think it was those 5meo experiences that really opened my eyes to the notion that even my best spiritual tool could be deleterious. I'd have an epic headache afterward where the pressure was so intense, it almost felt dangerous.

If I could go back in time, whenever I'd use psychedelics, the substance would be carefully chosen and it'd be squarely aimed at advancing spirituality, while minimizing the hedonistic desire to just feel good and have fun. So it's ultimately a question of efficiency in their use towards a specific goal. My efficiency was very poor, and I wish it was very good.

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

The past experiences were necessary for you to now use psychedelics more wisely.

It's that truth that gives me comfort in all the mistakes I've made. The concept applies to psychedelic use and much more.

Edited June 5 by What Am I

[Carl-Richard]

On 2.6.2024 at 4:23 PM, BlurryBoi said:

For example, LSD, THC, 2CB, Shrooms, and i assume all the DMT variants seem to consume/activate a lot of energy, wich is a problem when you're stuck with chronic burnout and other exhausting illness.

The "classical psychedelic receptor" (5HT2A) is involved in the stress response, so the experience is always going to be energetic in some way.

 

On 2.6.2024 at 4:23 PM, BlurryBoi said:

Correct me if im wrong but i think awakenings/psychedelics experiences like realising Love can also happen in a low energetical way.

Kinda, but not really. The most low energy way would be meditation, but the awakening experience itself is high energy (but not in an unsustainable/stressful way, so you shouldn't actually worry about it). The activation levels experienced during meditation can be visualized like an U-curve. When you first sit down, your energy levels tend to drop. Then, the longer you sit, the more rested you get and the more energy you can expend, and also you might have an awakening experience which actually releases tons of energetic chemicals (endorphins, serotonin, dopamine, etc.).

 

On 2.6.2024 at 4:23 PM, BlurryBoi said:

Maybe some specific strands of Cannabis, but i'm not sure about that.

It's primarily the CB1 signalling caused by THC which makes cannabis "psychedelic". So strains with less THC essentially just means strains with less psychedelic effect. And like 5HT2A, CB1 signalling is involved in the stress response (in fact, CB1 interacts with 5HT2A signalling).

Edited June 5 by Carl-Richard

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, integral said:

So it’s more like having a mini-stroke.

If you ain’t having a stoke of wisdom whilst doing psychedelics, you ain’t doing it right!

[Schizophonia]

4 hours ago, bambi said:

IS anyone else on board with the theory these D* agonists and 5HT* can help repair receptors in occasional considered use??

Why it would do that ? Receptors regulate themself with time.

If you suspect you have neurological damages for some reasons, decreasing stress (excess adrenaline and cortisol) and increasing OXPHOS will dramatically help.

 

[bambi]

Just now, Schizophonia said:

Why it would do that ? Receptors regulate themself with time.

If you suspect you have neurological damages for some reasons, decreasing stress (excess adrenaline and cortisol) and increasing OXPHOS will dramatically help.

 

Serotonin (5-HT) and dopamine agonists can contribute to receptor health through various mechanisms that promote neuroplasticity, receptor sensitivity, and overall neural function. Here’s a more detailed explanation:

### Mechanisms of 5-HT and Dopamine Agonists in Receptor Health

1. **Receptor Regulation and Sensitivity**:
   - **Desensitization and Resensitization**: Agonists can initially cause receptor activation, which may lead to desensitization. Over time, the regulation mechanisms can help resensitize the receptors, maintaining their responsiveness. This cycling can prevent receptor downregulation and promote receptor health.
   - **Upregulation**: Chronic agonist treatment can lead to an upregulation of certain receptors, making neurons more responsive to neurotransmitters.

2. **Neuroplasticity**:
   - **Synaptogenesis**: Agonists can stimulate the formation of new synapses, enhancing the connectivity between neurons. This is crucial for maintaining a healthy neural network and receptor functionality.
   - **Dendritic Growth**: Activation of these receptors can promote dendritic branching and growth, increasing the surface area for synaptic contacts and improving communication between neurons.

3. **Neuroprotection**:
   - **Antioxidant Effects**: Some agonists have neuroprotective properties that can reduce oxidative stress, protecting receptors and neurons from damage.
   - **Anti-inflammatory Effects**: Reducing neuroinflammation can prevent receptor damage and support overall brain health.

4. **Balanced Neurotransmitter Systems**:
   - **Homeostasis**: Agonists can help balance neurotransmitter systems. For example, dopamine agonists can alleviate dopamine deficits in conditions like Parkinson’s disease, improving motor function and receptor health.
   - **Cross-talk Between Systems**: Serotonin and dopamine systems interact. Enhancing one system can positively influence the other, promoting overall neurotransmitter balance and receptor function.

5. **Mood and Cognitive Enhancements**:
   - **Improved Mental Health**: By alleviating symptoms of depression and anxiety, serotonin and dopamine agonists can lead to a more positive mental state, which supports cognitive function and brain health.
   - **Enhanced Motivation and Reward Processing**: Dopamine agonists can improve motivation and reward processing, which is beneficial for mental and cognitive health.

### Clinical Implications

- **Parkinson’s Disease**: Dopamine agonists are commonly used to treat Parkinson’s disease by stimulating dopamine receptors, which helps to improve motor function and slow disease progression.
- **Depression and Anxiety**: Certain 5-HT receptor agonists are used in treating depression and anxiety, helping to normalize serotonin levels and improve mood and cognitive function.
- **Neuropsychiatric Disorders**: Agonists for both serotonin and dopamine receptors are being researched and used for various neuropsychiatric disorders, promoting receptor health and overall neural function.

In summary, serotonin and dopamine agonists help maintain receptor health by promoting receptor regulation, enhancing neuroplasticity, providing neuroprotection, balancing neurotransmitter systems, and improving mental health. These effects contribute to the overall resilience and functionality of neural networks.

[Schizophonia]

7 minutes ago, bambi said:

Serotonin (5-HT) and dopamine agonists can contribute to receptor health through various mechanisms that promote neuroplasticity, receptor sensitivity, and overall neural function. Here’s a more detailed explanation:

### Mechanisms of 5-HT and Dopamine Agonists in Receptor Health

1. **Receptor Regulation and Sensitivity**:
   - **Desensitization and Resensitization**: Agonists can initially cause receptor activation, which may lead to desensitization. Over time, the regulation mechanisms can help resensitize the receptors, maintaining their responsiveness. This cycling can prevent receptor downregulation and promote receptor health.
   - **Upregulation**: Chronic agonist treatment can lead to an upregulation of certain receptors, making neurons more responsive to neurotransmitters.

2. **Neuroplasticity**:
   - **Synaptogenesis**: Agonists can stimulate the formation of new synapses, enhancing the connectivity between neurons. This is crucial for maintaining a healthy neural network and receptor functionality.
   - **Dendritic Growth**: Activation of these receptors can promote dendritic branching and growth, increasing the surface area for synaptic contacts and improving communication between neurons.

3. **Neuroprotection**:
   - **Antioxidant Effects**: Some agonists have neuroprotective properties that can reduce oxidative stress, protecting receptors and neurons from damage.
   - **Anti-inflammatory Effects**: Reducing neuroinflammation can prevent receptor damage and support overall brain health.

4. **Balanced Neurotransmitter Systems**:
   - **Homeostasis**: Agonists can help balance neurotransmitter systems. For example, dopamine agonists can alleviate dopamine deficits in conditions like Parkinson’s disease, improving motor function and receptor health.
   - **Cross-talk Between Systems**: Serotonin and dopamine systems interact. Enhancing one system can positively influence the other, promoting overall neurotransmitter balance and receptor function.

5. **Mood and Cognitive Enhancements**:
   - **Improved Mental Health**: By alleviating symptoms of depression and anxiety, serotonin and dopamine agonists can lead to a more positive mental state, which supports cognitive function and brain health.
   - **Enhanced Motivation and Reward Processing**: Dopamine agonists can improve motivation and reward processing, which is beneficial for mental and cognitive health.

### Clinical Implications

- **Parkinson’s Disease**: Dopamine agonists are commonly used to treat Parkinson’s disease by stimulating dopamine receptors, which helps to improve motor function and slow disease progression.
- **Depression and Anxiety**: Certain 5-HT receptor agonists are used in treating depression and anxiety, helping to normalize serotonin levels and improve mood and cognitive function.
- **Neuropsychiatric Disorders**: Agonists for both serotonin and dopamine receptors are being researched and used for various neuropsychiatric disorders, promoting receptor health and overall neural function.

In summary, serotonin and dopamine agonists help maintain receptor health by promoting receptor regulation, enhancing neuroplasticity, providing neuroprotection, balancing neurotransmitter systems, and improving mental health. These effects contribute to the overall resilience and functionality of neural networks.

Dopamine and Serotonin have an opposite effect.

Serotonin is highly implied in stress response, psychedelics increase neuroplasticity because 5ht2a increase glutamate and therefore catecholaminergic neurotransmition. It's like stab you in stomach and felicitating yourself because "my body repair, adapt itself". 

Cyproheptadine and others 5HT are used to help cushing disease, for exemple.

Edited June 5 by Schizophonia

[bambi]

13 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Dopamine and Serotonin have an opposite effect.

Serotonin is highly implied in stress response, psychedelics increase neuroplasticity because 5ht2a increase glutamate and therefore catecholaminergic neurotransmition. It's like stab you in stomach and felicitating yourself because "my body repair, adapt itself". 

Cyproheptadine and others 5HT are used to help cushing disease, for exemple.

Sorry I find it hard to parse your response, isnt very readable to me

Are you saying psychedelics dont promote any type of net neurogenesis, but are simply reparing their own damage they cuase?

 

[Keryo Koffa]

4 hours ago, OBEler said:

I had heavy hangovers after astral projection, more nasty than any hangover from various research chemicals I loaded into my body. So how can that be that non chemical journey feels even more unhealthy in terms of a hangover?

2 hours ago, What Am I said:

One thing I've noticed is that the bar has significantly lowered for how easily a rough comedown and hangover can be produced by psychedelics

The more context I gather and the more I feel into it, the more it feels like psychedelics are burning away our karma and the negative resistance and side effects of prolonged usage are really a denial of what seems to be a natural progression to Mahasamadhi. And it would also explain astral projection causing headaches as the mind gets disconnected from the body and needs to reintegrate.

I felt several times like I was at the verge of dissolving into nothingness, accessing alien consciousness or desiring to transcend physical existence to break material limitations. At some point, these tools for god consciousness lead to a natural continuation of the spiritual path when the desire for material pleasures fade away as we resolve our traumas and become whole (the whole path of Buddhism and esoteric Hinduism). So then why do we immediately judge side effects as health complications when really it might not be a bug but a feature.

Psychedelic kundalini awakening can be pretty anti-climactic though because all desires burn away, but so is grinding after an externalized goal for 20 years to realize it doesn't bring happiness. So my take about psychedelics is, they inevitably lead to mahasamadhi and all negative side effects are resisting and postponing that process in intuitive fear of dissolution, but maybe there's more life to experience so "awareness itself is curative"

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, Keryo Koffa said:

The more context I gather and the more I feel into it, the more it feels like psychedelics are burning away our karma and the negative resistance and side effects of prolonged usage are really a denial of what seems to be a natural progression to Mahasamadhi. And it would also explain astral projection causing headaches as the mind gets disconnected from the body and needs to reintegrate.

Sure, if you're talking about highly energetic events caused by powerful psychedelics, I agree your karma gets burned away as you're purified by its exposure to your nervous system (or maybe chakras or nadis, I don't really know). And it would force the progression of a natural purification process that can ultimately lead to enlightenment, the highest samadhi, or whatever we would call it. I'd argue that's a good side effect of psychedelics such as 5-MeO-DMT, and it's the exact reason that one in particular has been so transformative for me compared to others.

I'd also argue that there seems to be negative bodily side effects that occur in parallel. They're not deal-breakers, but they're bad enough to where it holds me back from going apeshit with it. At this point, I feel like I'm able to distinguish between the two types of side effects (good and bad). Thankfully, the good stays with you for many months after some heavy 5meo usage, whereas the brunt of the negative goes away after a few days at most. That's been my experience and interpretation at least. It's possible I'm missing something.

1 hour ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Psychedelic kundalini awakening can be pretty anti-climactic though because all desires burn away, but so is grinding after an externalized goal for 20 years to realize it doesn't bring happiness.

I appreciate your continued attention on kundalini. For reasons I don't understand, only a few of us on the forum seem to get firstly that it's a real thing, and secondly what its role in awakening seems to be. It's an area that begs for more attention if the goal is spirituality of any significant type. Even though people can still develop in a similar way while being ignorant of it, it has helped so much in my mental map to understand it intellectually, even if imperfectly.

2 hours ago, Keryo Koffa said:

So my take about psychedelics is, they inevitably lead to mahasamadhi and all negative side effects are resisting and postponing that process in intuitive fear of dissolution, but maybe there's more life to experience so "awareness itself is curative"

That's an interesting possibility. I can't deny that maybe I'm misinterpreting the negative side effects, and they're actually resistance on my part. It'd take a leap in thinking for me to accept it though. Still worth considering.

[bambi]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A sore muscle is not the same.

You can be very obtuse and slippery with some of your positions, its very strange. Do you not prefer just being upfront, honest and direct? Like its not clear to me what your position on psychedelics are at the moment lol, you speak in riddles and partial stances. Whats the big deal of just writing an accurate outline of your current stance. 

 

 

[Schizophonia]

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

The "classical psychedelic receptor" (5HT2A) is involved in the stress response, so the experience is always going to be energetic in some way.

 

 

Lol, you actually have outstripped me.
 

[bambi]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Lol, you actually have outstripped me.
 

But your perpsective seems incredibly reductive and partial, your basically positing:

Psychedelics cause some form of stress, therefore bad.

OR

Psychedelics cause some form of stress, which causes the body to enact neuro-regeneration to simply repair the damaged cause by the stress -> this is way too reductive

[Schizophonia]

7 minutes ago, bambi said:

But your perpsective seems incredibly reductive and partial, your basically positing:

Psychedelics cause some form of stress, therefore bad.

OR

Psychedelics cause some form of stress, which causes the body to enact neuro-regeneration to simply repair the damaged cause by the stress -> this is way too reductive

It's not that psychedelics are particularly neurologically harmful and therefore trigger neuroplasticity  to "repair the damages".

Every drugs that will discord consciousness in a unusual way will increase neuroplasticity, because brain adapt itself to a new paradigm. Even going on vacation will improve neuroplasticity.

Psychedelics are not effective to trigger neurogenesis, it will not repair the brain.

[What Am I]

@bambi when it comes to repairing damage from abuse of harmful substances, the things that helped me the most were abstinence, a healthy lifestyle, and time most of all. It took like 5 years after stopping stimulant abuse for my fight or flight response to normalize.

[bambi]

12 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It's not that psychedelics are particularly neurologically harmful and therefore trigger neuroplasticity  to "repair the damages".

Every drugs that will discord consciousness in a unusual way will increase neuroplasticity, because brain adapt itself to a new paradigm. Even going on vacation will improve neuroplasticity.

Psychedelics are not effective to trigger neurogenesis, it will not repair the brain.

The last sentence, where is your evidence and data for this? What is the basis for such an affirmative claim? Can you please cite some soruce or data.

Several studies in mice show nuerogenesis, and several studies in humans show an increase in BDNF which is involved in neurogenesis.