Are there Psychedelics that are Not Stimulating/Exhausting to the Nervous System ?

[What Am I]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How is it not obvious to you that you could experience a short term mental performance boost at the cost of lower long-term performance?

I think the ability to recognize risk and understand the ramifications of consequences are something that has to be learned. I guess it's a form of wisdom as opposed to just knowledge. I remember being incredibly reckless when I was younger. And thinking back to my state of mind, part of me clearly understood I was screwing myself over, but my ignorance and lack of awareness simply wouldn't let me make better choices.

Edited June 4 by What Am I

[Jannes]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How is it not obvious to you that you could experience a short term mental performance boost at the cost of lower long-term performance?

Many things in life give great results, with a hidden long term cost.

Just as a basic example, studies show that chronic weed use leads to deterioration of memory over the long term.

I love weed, but I wouldn't want to lose my memory as I get older so I would not use it chroncially.

It's possible but for me it's not obvious as many things in life dont work that way. 

For example if I eat a lot to get fat I will keep being "better" at being fat my whole life because I have built more fat cells. Psychedelics also built new connections so that analogy is quite fitting. 

And just using something does not make it worse. If you exercise a lot your body stays in shape because your body makes the things stressed better and also recovers them like your muscles, bones, joints, ...). You can overdo it of course and end up like Ronnie Coleman. 

I dont know what overdoing with psychedelics means here. Maybe when used in moderation they give you long term mental performance boost analogous to the other examples or maybe they just increase certain types of intelligence while decreasing others or maybe they completely fry your brain. I dont know.

You haven't used psychedelics in a while have you lost intelligence?

Edited June 4 by Jannes

[Javfly33]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How is it not obvious to you that you could experience a short term mental performance boost at the cost of lower long-term performance?

Many things in life give great results, with a hidden long term cost.

 

Yeap. Thats a great summary of how must drugs work. 

[Peo]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just as a basic example, studies show that chronic weed use leads to deterioration of memory over the long term.

I have used weed since i was 16, maybe not chronic use, but at least 1 joint per week. Sometimes with months with breaks. My memory is fine.

[Schizophonia]

Mushrooms are sedative.

[integral]

It’s like a workout, you need appropriate recovery time afterwards to rebuild and recover.

Edited June 4 by integral

[Peo]

6 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Mushrooms are sedative.

No they are psychedelics 

[integral]

Lucid dreaming and Nootropics that induce lucid dreaming might be The closest thing to A stress-free psychedelic.

Edited June 5 by integral

[Keryo Koffa]

On 6/4/2024 at 4:32 AM, Leo Gura said:

How is it not obvious

There's nothing obvious about that. Are bad trips good or resistance to the truth or a needless exploration of selfishness, are good trips bad because they're not hard, or is the lesson of accepting and realizing love a meaningful one? Does exercise upgrade the body or wear it down? Is stress positive or negative, does perspective change that? Is being scared of psychedelics a sign to stop or a barrier to surpass? Is being excited about psychedelics a trap or a sign one is ready to go beyond their comfort zone and challenge oneself. Is engaging in life a distraction or the point of living? Is being withdrawn a sign to self-actualize and change habits or simply cowardice, an overreaction, and coping mechanism. Is volunteering selfless or a distraction from one's own pain and coping. Is life purpose and actualized.org a meaningful spiritual endeavor, or a distraction from living in the present and transforming one's social environment like Sadhguru is doing? Is becoming a billionaire through the manipulation and exploitation of others a meaningful endeavor because one can then use these resources to transform the world or is it a trap that everyone falls into?

Is there even a physical body that's being overwhelmed, or is it just one's psychology that is manifesting materially and can be relied on to tell what's healthy? And if so, is being overwhelmed a good thing because of growth like building muscles or a sign to rest, or a sign one went to far or a sign that one did the right thing and really pushed one's limits? There is NOTHING obvious about anything until one really engages and starts wondering.

Maybe everything is true simultaneously and non-dually but that doesn't actually create a clear solution, that's its own endeavor based on ever evolving self-understanding.

Edited June 5 by Keryo Koffa

[integral]

@BlurryBoi there’s one more dimension people are not talking about and that’s it depends how you use it.

If you meditate sleep and relax on the psychedelic Then the work and stress on the nervous system will be a lot lower.

The reason it’s so stressful is because you’re mind is exerting itself and you’re exerting your nervous system for hours at a time creating fatigue.

If you know how to relax deeply then the experience can be very different and more rewarding And less draining.

[Schizophonia]

20 hours ago, Peo said:

No they are psychedelics 

And ?

It's not like it's was about amphetamine salts or a any kind of stimulants.

If your think your nervous system is falling so much and you need rest why do you want to take any substances ?

There is a time for each things.

Edited June 5 by Schizophonia

[vibv]

On 4.6.2024 at 1:47 PM, Schizophonia said:

Mushrooms are sedative.

Can be. They can also be pretty energetic, they're still a CNS stimulant, after all.

Albeit not nearly as strongly as LSD is stimulating.

Edited June 5 by vibv

[Schizophonia]

6 minutes ago, vibv said:

Can be. They can also be pretty energetic, they're still a CNS stimulant, after all.

Albeit not nearly as strongly as LSD is stimulating.

Yes, LSD is also a strong dopamine agonist.

[bambi]

28 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes, LSD is also a strong dopamine agonist.

IS anyone else on board with the theory these D* agonists and 5HT* can help repair receptors in occasional considered use??

[Leo Gura]

You ever had a hangover or a headache after a day of deep tripping?

That's your clue it ain't good for your body.

Listen to the clues your body is sending you 

Edited June 5 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You ever had a hang over or a head ache after a day of deep tripping.

That's your clue it ain't good for your body.

You ever had sore muscle after a heavy workout? It feels not good but after some days your muscles adapt and you are stronger and fitter.

I had heavy hangovers after astral projection, more nasty than any hangover from various research chemicals I loaded into my body. So how can that be that non chemical journey feels even more unhealthy in terms of a hangover?

So it's not clear at all. It could be just that your brain is growing/ improving and that restructuring can give you headaches like muscles hurt after a heavy workout. If you tell about long-term effects this would be a complete different issue.

I remember you said some time ago that you would be more concerned in terms of toxicity in a salad than in a psychedelic. It seems nowadays you change your opinion and are just warning others to be very careful? Whatever happened to you, I hope that you didn't got a Tinnitus from too much tripping.

[What Am I]

20 minutes ago, OBEler said:

You ever had sore muscle after a heavy workout? It feels not good but after some days your muscles adapt and you are stronger and fitter.

I hear what you're saying, and I ran down this line of logic myself when the thread was first started. The difference would be that you can intuit the soreness from exercise as an overall beneficial thing. Even more so as your intuition and capacity for awareness grows over time. Even though it hurts, it actually feels good in a way that's difficult to describe. And it's not just because you intellectually understand it'll produce muscle growth in the future. The sensation itself doesn't feel unhealthy. In contrast, I have never had the same intuition from the physical effects of a psychedelic hangover. It's something I avoid and minimize at all costs.

I acknowledge this isn't scientific and is based 100% on "feels", but I'm confident in my assessment after countless trips over 20 years of psychedelic use.

20 minutes ago, OBEler said:

I had heavy hangovers after astral projection, more nasty than any hangover from various research chemicals I loaded into my body. So how can that be that non chemical journey feels even more unhealthy in terms of a hangover?

This is interesting and I wouldn't know how to fit it into my model, as I've never astral projected to my knowledge, especially not without chemicals being involved. I guess if you really feel repelled after the experience, it's possible you should avoid it. Maybe you're visiting realms that would correlate to the more negative side of the emotional spectrum, and they're affecting you in some undesirable way.

Edited June 5 by What Am I

[OBEler]

23 minutes ago, What Am I said:

I hear what you're saying, and I ran down this line of logic myself when the thread was first started. The difference would be that you can intuit the soreness from exercise as an overall beneficial thing. Even more so as your intuition and capacity for awareness grows over time. Even though it hurts, it actually feels good in a way that's difficult to describe. And it's not just because you intellectually understand it'll produce muscle growth in the future. The sensation itself doesn't feel unhealthy. In contrast, I have never had the same intuition from the physical effects of a psychedelic hangover. It's something I avoid and minimize at all costs.

I acknowledge this isn't scientific and is based 100% on "feels", but I'm confident in my assessment after countless trips over 20 years of psychedelic use.

This is interesting and I wouldn't know how to fit it into my model, as I've never astral projected to my knowledge, especially not without chemicals being involved. I guess if you really feel repelled after the experience, it's possible you should avoid it. Maybe you're visiting realms that would correlate to the more negative side of the emotional spectrum, and they're affecting you in some undesirable way.

No not at all. It has nothing to do with the stuff I see on an astral journey. By the way on an astral projection you have almost zero emotions. You are just the observer and you know you are invincible because everything you see is made up by your subconscious. I never encountered anything negative.

It feels like being sick from too much virtual reality playing. Your brain hurts.

Can you share a bit more about your possible observed long-term effects on 20 years of tripping? I know it's anecdotal but still very interesting to hear from someone like you who tripped so long.

[Yousif]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

You ever had sore muscle after a heavy workout? It feels not good but after some days your muscles adapt and you are stronger and fitter

Yes, drinking gives you a hangover, it feels not good but after some days your liver adapts and now you’ve built tolerance and can drink more without getting drunk. 😂

[What Am I]

Just now, OBEler said:

It feels like being sick from too much virtual reality playing. Your brain hurts.

Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. Maybe it has something to do with an overload of the energetic system caused by an increased demand via astral projection. Because an overload of that type most certainly does feel shitty.

3 minutes ago, OBEler said:

Can you share a bit more about your possible observed long-term effects on 20 years of tripping? I know it's anecdotal but still very interesting to hear from someone like you who tripped so long.

Sure, so this is a tricky one. I'd be hard-pressed to say that I'm aware of any obvious negative long-term mental effects I've experienced from tripping. It's possible my memories could be slower to recall, or maybe I'm less able to take in and grasp new concepts. It's all so subtle, and it's like I'm trying to judge my mind using my mind, so who could really say.

One thing I've noticed is that the bar has significantly lowered for how easily a rough comedown and hangover can be produced by psychedelics, meaning my brain and body are less resilient to the negative effects. It makes their drawbacks on health much more apparent, and it really forces me to choose my trips carefully. It's this alone that has me so vehemently in agreement with Leo to watch for signals from your body and respond accordingly. For me, the extrapolated risks have become too obvious to ignore.

Just to not shit on psychedelics too much, they have absolutely changed my life and helped shed light on the path I need to follow. I don't regret their use, but I wish I had the same understanding in the past that I have now.