I am absolute morality itself.

[Razard86]

I am ABSOLUTE MORALITY itself. Morality is not really as complicated as we think. Morality has to do with the individual and the whole. So it's simple there are two rules to morality.

1. Never give someone an experience that you wouldn't want. 

2. Never give someone an experience that they wouldn't want.

3. Lastly, do not think or speak or act out an experience you don't want.

This covers all basis of moral action and is perfect self alignment with all that you identify with.

Edited May 28 by Razard86

[Butters]

9 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

3. Lastly, do not think or speak or act out and experience you don't want.

Easier said than done 😁

[Breakingthewall]

It depends, if you are an Apache the morality is: Kill all the Comanches, if possible by torturing them by having dogs devour their intestines or by dragging them among cacti. Then enslave their women and have many children with them. If one bothers you, exchange her for a horse or cut off her nose. 

[Razard86]

6 minutes ago, Butters said:

Easier said than done 😁

Yeah the key is to tell yourself the truth about how you feel about life. If you hate it, admit that you hate it, speak what you like and what you hate about it. Go to the mirror and cry out to God that life is not working the way you think it should. If you are honest enough, and wait for a response. Eventually you will receive it.

Patience is the key for this. Also if you enter an altered state either through meditation, hallucinogens, or psychedelics it can enhance the process. But understand that God is an inner conversation.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

I am ABSOLUTE MORALITY itself. Morality is not really as complicated as we think. Morality has to do with the individual and the whole. So it's simple there are two rules to morality.

1. Never give someone an experience that you wouldn't want. 

2. Never give someone an experience that they wouldn't want.

3. Lastly, do not think or speak or act out an experience you don't want.

This covers all basis of moral action and is perfect self alignment with all that you identify with.

That's pretty good.

But how would you apply that in complex situations such as:

• Driving your car kills bugs
• Driving your car adds to climate change
• Buying cheap products supports slave labor
• Using fertilizer to grow you fruits kills animals and pollutes the water
• Getting your electricity from wind trubines kills birds
• Consuming porn might contribute to exploitation of women in that industry
• Etc

Genuinely curious how your system handles that.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[Greatnestwithin]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

That's pretty good.

But how would you apply that in complex situations such as:

• Driving your car kills bugs
• Driving your car adds to climate change
• Buying cheap products supports slave labor
• Using fertilizer to grow you fruits kills animals and pollutes the water
• Getting your electricity from wind trubines kills birds
• Etc

Genuinely curious how your system handles that.

@Leo Gura Love that you are practicing here what you mentioned on your last video, challenging people's thinking from a place of being open and curious.
Thank you Leo.

[Razard86]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It depends, if you are an Apache the morality is: Kill all the Comanches, if possible by torturing them by having dogs devour their intestines or by dragging them among cacti. Then enslave their women and have many children with them. If one bothers you, exchange her for a horse or cut off her nose. 

Remember morality is built on self alignment, the experience we want to have is what is true for us. This is the foundation of all morality. The other two laws build off of this.

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Remember morality is built on self alignment,

Agree, then could be said that there is not an absolute morality. For example for me it's immoral to eat fish because fishing promotes the destruction of marine life, but a Somali fisherman will think I'm retarded

[Razard86]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's pretty good.

But how would you apply that in complex situations such as:

• Driving your car kills bugs
• Driving your car adds to climate change
• Buying cheap products supports slave labor
• Using fertilizer to grow you fruits kills animals and pollutes the water
• Getting your electricity from wind trubines kills birds
• Consuming porn might contribute to exploitation of women in that industry
• Etc

Genuinely curious how your system handles that.

Driving your car kills bugs. = Simple, you are a Giant, you can't see them. The same way a meteor does not have the awareness to know its slamming into itself and killing off a trillion people, is the same way your Giant behind has no idea you are stepping or driving over bugs.

Driving your car adds to climate change.= Again simple as a human you have created a society that requires you to work to make a living. As such all you can do is advocate if it is meaningful to you for cleaner and more ecofriendly forms of emission. Again this is if it is meaningful to you as you are an individual and not a collective.

Buying cheap products supports slave labor= Again you do not have a list of all products and as such you are innocent of knowing which products to buy. But if you want you can research products and find out which products are produced through slavery. But be careful, one could argue agriculture in the United States is slavery based on how pitiful the conditions are for migrant workers. So hey you can starve if you want or go completely self-sufficient and grow your own food. 

Fertilizer was created to maximize the production and harvesting of crops. If you don't find an alternative you will ruin your food supply and kill more people than bugs. And understand from the human perspective, a human's life is worth more than a bugs life. Ultimately all lives are equal, but here is a secret you don't realize, God shows favor. Ask yourself why human were given the gift of self awareness and intelligence on a level that bugs don't have.

Wind Turbines killing birds is just a part of the circle of life. Everything lives and everything dies. And if a bird doesn't pay attention he slams into a turbine and dies. A wind turbine is an expression of human nature, and nature cares about the business of its expression. 

Consuming porn might lead to exploitation of women. Again this is simple, all actions by humans can lead to excesses, by your logic we shouldn't do anything because it could lead to this or lead to that.

Morality is about controlling what you can, and living what will be out of your control as it should be. Why? Because you couldn't make it any different so why are you worrying about it. Only concern yourself with that which you can control and you will have perfect morality. 

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Driving your car kills bugs. = Simple, you are a Giant, you can't see them. The same way a meteor does not have the awareness to know its slamming into itself and killing off a trillion people, is the same way your Giant behind has no idea you are stepping or driving over bugs.

Driving your car adds to climate change.= Again simple as a human you have created a society that requires you to work to make a living. As such all you can do is advocate if it is meaningful to you for cleaner and more ecofriendly forms of emission. Again this is if it is meaningful to you as you are an individual and not a collective.

Buying cheap products supports slave labor= Again you do not have a list of all products and as such you are innocent of knowing which products to buy. But if you want you can research products and find out which products are produced through slavery. But be careful, one could argue agriculture in the United States is slavery based on how pitiful the conditions are for migrant workers. So hey you can starve if you want or go completely self-sufficient and grow your own food. 

Fertilizer was created to maximize the production and harvesting of crops. If you don't find an alternative you will ruin your food supply and kill more people than bugs. And understand from the human perspective, a human's life is worth more than a bugs life. Ultimately all lives are equal, but here is a secret you don't realize, God shows favor. Ask yourself why human were given the gift of self awareness and intelligence on a level that bugs don't have.

Wind Turbines killing birds is just a part of the circle of life. Everything lives and everything dies. And if a bird doesn't pay attention he slams into a turbine and dies. A wind turbine is an expression of human nature, and nature cares about the business of its expression. 

Consuming porn might lead to exploitation of women. Again this is simple, all actions by humans can lead to excesses, by your logic we shouldn't do anything because it could lead to this or lead to that.

Morality is about controlling what you can, and living what will be out of your control as it should be. Why? Because you couldn't make it any different so why are you worrying about it. Only concern yourself with that which you can control and you will have perfect morality. 

There are a lot of holes in your response here. Leo brought up great points to your argument. Anyone who thinks morality is simple is fooling themselves. Your moral principles are great for some aspects of the human domain, but they are disconnected from the nuances of the complex facets of reality. The idea that you are morally good is itself a trap of the Devil. 

Edited May 28 by r0ckyreed

[Davino]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Morality is about controlling what you can, and living what will be out of your control as it should be. Why? Because you couldn't make it any different so why are you worrying about it. Only concern yourself with that which you can control and you will have perfect morality. 

What you can control is different from what you "care" to control. Your answers showcase that. The initial axioms are pretty good but Leo really brought up some edge cases you haven't solved.

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Driving your car kills bugs. = Simple, you are a Giant, you can't see them. The same way a meteor does not have the awareness to know its slamming into itself and killing off a trillion people, is the same way your Giant behind has no idea you are stepping or driving over bugs.

This is using ignorance as an excuse. Ignorantia juris non excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law excuses not")  is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of breaking the law may not escape liability for violating that law merely by being unaware.

So your answer clearly violates your own axioms 1 and 2 by this fallacy.

The point is that there are people who do care about driving killing bugs, a whole religion in fact, Jainism. Who uphold, ahimsa, or non violence, to the extreme. Jains even wear a face mask to prevent the accidental inhalation and killing of insects and usually clean the floor as they walk to avoid stepping any living creature.

I cannot post pictures but here you can see in the thumbnail how they live with their face masks and cleaning utensiles.

If you wanna learn about the most extreme morality practiced in the world study Jainism. You will see where the rabbit hole of morality leads to and how impractical and impossible it is to actually live by it. Which is to say that most people just live in morality fantasies with gaps as huge as mountains while totally unaware of the contradictions in their everday actions.

 

So I think the following point extrapolates to the rest of your answers which is: one thing is the law, another is what you can do to align with the law and lastly and most important is to what extent you care to do so.

 

For me a big axiom in morality is the eternal tension between the individual and the collective, I understood this concept thanks to Ken Wilber and I think it's foundational to any discussion about morality.

Edited May 28 by Davino

[Vibes]

5 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I am ABSOLUTE MORALITY itself. Morality is not really as complicated as we think. Morality has to do with the individual and the whole. So it's simple there are two rules to morality.

1. Never give someone an experience that you wouldn't want. 

2. Never give someone an experience that they wouldn't want.

3. Lastly, do not think or speak or act out an experience you don't want.

This covers all basis of moral action and is perfect self alignment with all that you identify with.

Yes, I think this is the best we can do.

I was lucky that my dad taught me from very early the first 2. Of course, he himself was / is far from perfect, but I admire him for that.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's pretty good.

But how would you apply that in complex situations such as:

• Driving your car kills bugs
• Driving your car adds to climate change
• Buying cheap products supports slave labor
• Using fertilizer to grow you fruits kills animals and pollutes the water
• Getting your electricity from wind trubines kills birds
• Consuming porn might contribute to exploitation of women in that industry
• Etc

Genuinely curious how your system handles that.

The only way to not harm anyone is to be dead.

Just by stepping on grass you're killing and injuring creatures…

Edited May 28 by Vibes

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Vibes said:

Yes, I think this is the best we can do.

I was lucky that my dad taught me from very early the first 2. Of course, he himself was / is far from perfect, but I admire him for that.

The only way to not harm anyone is to be dead.

Just by stepping on grass you're killing and injuring creatures…

Yes, but the moral questions are all about where you draw your lines.

I'm sure that as they are bombing Gaza the Israeli leadership are telling themselves: "The only way not to harm anyone is to be dead."

But then you look at that as an outsider and are horrified at the net result.

It's easy to find ways to create all sorts of blind externalities.

Which is why I framed my defintion of morality as such: All of morality boils down to reducing the harm your selfishness causes others.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but the moral questions are all about where you draw your lines.

I'm sure that as they are bombing Gaza the Israeli leadership are telling themselves: "The only way not to harm anyone is to be dead."

But then you look at that as an outsider and are horrified at the net result.

It's easy to find ways to create all sorts of blind externalities.

Which is why I framed my defintion of morality as such: All of morality boils down to reducing the harm your selfishness causes others.

Yes I like this definition, but Id say also reducing your selfishness down to survival needs of the body, without additional requirements. So above shelter food, wife, you should have as few needs or requirements from the world or reality as possible

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, bambi said:

So above shelter food, wife, you should have as few needs or requirements from the world or reality as possible

As long as I get to keep my private jet, no worries.

[Davino]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Which is why I framed my defintion of morality as such: All of morality boils down to reducing the harm your selfishness causes others.

That's brilliant but how do you build up law from that?

That's the practical applications of our discussion here. Imagine you are the supreme judge of a country and you get to formulate the law according to your understanding. What would the law be like?

That's an interesting thought experiment and you see quickly what a complex and nuanced task it actually is.

[Princess Arabia]

When nature hits, it ain't thinking about morality. Earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornados wipes out entire cities at times killing anything in it's path. Humans are the only species worried about morality. 

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Davino said:

That's the practical applications of our discussion here. Imagine you are the supreme judge of a country and you get to formulate the law according to your understanding. What would the law be like?

It's just impossible to say. It can't be done like that. Society has to negotiate all those rules through an infinitely messy quasi-democratic corrupt process.

That's basically what the last 5000 years of civilization have been.

But my defintion can be applied at the local level by each actor if they desire. And it will have to be applied incrementally, bit by bit, not as any kind of leap to perfection. And everyone will have their own ideas of where they want to draw lines for themselves, based on their capacities, life situation, and level of development.

Very importantly my definition is not normative, so you can't use it to shame someone into doing anything.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

6 minutes ago, Davino said:

Imagine you are the supreme judge of a country and you get to formulate the law according to your understanding. What would the law be like?

It'll be like this😂

[Vibes]

40 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Which is why I framed my defintion of morality as such: All of morality boils down to reducing the harm your selfishness causes others.

I agree, of course.