I took an IQ test for fun.

[Max_V]

@Carl-Richard How often do you do Dual N Back, or what is like you schedule like? My working memory is what I score lowest at in my tests, think it would improve my whole IQ profile if I managed to get stronger in that.

[OBEler]

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm convinced you can increase your IQ by 10 points in just a month with Dual N-Back training (with a coach maybe even faster). High-intensity cardio training, heavy weight training, proper diet and meditation are probably worth 5 points each in isolation, maybe less in total because of the overlap between them; let's say ~ 10 points. Then things like journaling, social interactions, general life satisfaction and meaning also add up.

There is not really proof that this works. It sounds logic but so far no study could give clear evidence.

And don't count these anecdotes where people do IQ test, then go to n back training and do the exact same IQ test again...of course they get higher IQ with taking the same test again.

 

Edited May 29 by OBEler

[Carl-Richard]

22 hours ago, Max_V said:

@Carl-Richard How often do you do Dual N Back, or what is like you schedule like?

I do it right before I workout at the gym (in the lobby and on my phone), so once every other day (3.5x a week).

The InfiniteIQ guy recommends to take breaks, and it makes sense, as you build up fatigue just like with any type of working out. So matching it with my gym regimen makes sense. I also started to do it before the gym because it allows me to recover some of the fatigue during the gym workout, so I can do at least a few productive things afterwards. If you do brain training and then try to do something productive afterwards, you will notice a significant drop in performance.

I currently do Dual 6-Back at brainscale.net (it requires payment, but there are other sites). I use standard settings for Dual: audio (sounds of letters) and position (blocks in a 3 x 3 grid). All other settings are also standard, except I do 36 trials each set, which is a bit lower than standard. With 36 trials, you get 6 "strings" of 6 trials, which is mathematically pleasing, but it also meshes well with my strategy (I gave an attempted explanation of it in the other IQ thread). The standard settings also just feel way too long.

With 36 trials, each set lasts 108 seconds (1.8 minutes), and I do 10 sets each session, which adds up to 18 minutes (which is around the recommendations by InfiniteIQ). I tend to rest 15 to 30 seconds between sets, which gives a total time each session of around 20-23 minutes. That is also when I feel the most ready to start my gym session anyways (I tend to eat right before going to the gym), so it matches quite nicely with my general schedule.

 

22 hours ago, Max_V said:

My working memory is what I score lowest at in my tests, think it would improve my whole IQ profile if I managed to get stronger in that.

It's definitely worth the investment imo. More working memory can really only be good. Not wanting more working memory is like not wanting more physical strength. Unless you're roided out to the point where you can't breathe because your neck is too thick, more physical strength is virtually always better. People who say being smart is a burden are kidding themselves (they're thinking about psychically imbalanced, immature nerds, not smart people).

Edited May 30 by Carl-Richard

[Agrande]

An IQ score is too one dimensional and doesn't account for the multi faceted nature of intelligence. So many different forms. It's not all rational, logical and heady stuff although that's a very important facet in intelligence anyway

[Carl-Richard]

On 29.5.2024 at 11:20 PM, OBEler said:

There is not really proof that this works. It sounds logic but so far no study could give clear evidence.

And don't count these anecdotes where people do IQ test, then go to n back training and do the exact same IQ test again...of course they get higher IQ with taking the same test again.

I once attended a lecture where the professor presented a review of various contested areas in psychology, including the efficacy of brain training (including N-Back), and he rated the evidence as "medium". Compared to the other things on that list, it actually fared quite well.

 

On 29.5.2024 at 11:20 PM, OBEler said:

And don't count these anecdotes where people do IQ test, then go to n back training and do the exact same IQ test again...of course they get higher IQ with taking the same test again.

Anecdotes don't necessarily give an accurate picture, but they can show the scope of what is possible. The InfiniteIQ dude had a friend who took the test twice (one year apart) without any brain training and only saw a 2-point increase, and he was also trying to maximize his performance through other things like getting enough sleep beforehand. InfiniteIQ saw a 13-point increase with 1 year of brain training and the tests were three years apart. If the re-take effect tapers off over time, you would expect the effect to be smaller for InfiniteIQ.

Edited May 30 by Carl-Richard

[OBEler]

@Carl-Richard interesting.

Still studies contradict each other's on n back training, some show improvement,some zero improvement. overall not really a proof.

But if the professor says the proof is "medium" ok. Maybe to look a bit more into this.

Edited May 30 by OBEler

[Dryas]

On 29/05/2024 at 2:44 PM, Carl-Richard said:

I'm convinced you can increase your IQ by 10 points in just a month with Dual N-Back training

What about Quad N-back? I've done that for about a month (skipping one day, ~25 minutes) and I didn't get a 10 point increase. I will admit to some cognitive boost but I'm skeptical even of that and it definitely wasn't 10 points.

I'm kinda lazy these days but intend to get back on it for the entire summer and see what happens I guess.

[Carl-Richard]

54 minutes ago, Dryas said:

What about Quad N-back? I've done that for about a month (skipping one day, ~25 minutes) and I didn't get a 10 point increase. I will admit to some cognitive boost but I'm skeptical even of that and it definitely wasn't 10 points.

I'm kinda lazy these days but intend to get back on it for the entire summer and see what happens I guess.

I don't like Quad because I feel it induces a kind of ADHD-like state. I will notice that I try to switch my focus between different stimuli types quite rapidly in order to get an even score on all stimuli types, and the manner in which I switch seems impulsive and unstructured. With Dual, you're much more able to keep a steady focus, both because there are fewer stimuli types and because visual and auditory stimuli can be processed in parallel quite well. You're also probably more able to develop a structured strategy with fewer stimuli types, which streamlines your progress.

 

54 minutes ago, Dryas said:

What about Quad N-back? I've done that for about a month (skipping one day, ~25 minutes) and I didn't get a 10 point increase.

Have you seen any progress in your in-game performance (have you advanced through any N-Back levels)? Have you developed an in-game strategy? Are you taking adequate breaks to deal with fatigue (both within each session and between sessions)? Consistency is important for growth, but rest is just as important.

Edited May 30 by Carl-Richard

[Epikur]

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I once attended a lecture where the professor presented a review of various contested areas in psychology, including the efficacy of brain training (including N-Back), and he rated the evidence as "medium". Compared to the other things on that list, it actually fared quite well.

 

Anecdotes don't necessarily give an accurate picture, but they can show the scope of what is possible. The InfiniteIQ dude had a friend who took the test twice (one year apart) without any brain training and only saw a 2-point increase, and he was also trying to maximize his performance through other things like getting enough sleep beforehand. InfiniteIQ saw a 13-point increase with 1 year of brain training and the tests were three years apart. If the re-take effect tapers off over time, you would expect the effect to be smaller for InfiniteIQ.

Even we would say officially there is NO proof that it raises IQ it would still be very good to have better memory.

Carl did you test yourself with the human benchmark? There are some online but you can also get apps. Some influencers did the test some were extremely good, I try to do dual n back and human benchmark every 3 days or so. I do quad n back at the moment and it gets better. Btw with human benchmark I only mean the chimp test and the grid memory test. With human benchmark it seems I slowly get better. Ok on thinking about it I should do the third one too the remembering number test. When I first made the tests I was in the lowest 3 percent. That sounds pretty low. I might post some results later.


 

 

 

Edited May 31 by Epikur

[Carl-Richard]

On 31.5.2024 at 7:42 AM, Epikur said:

Even we would say officially there is NO proof that it raises IQ it would still be very good to have better memory.

We also have to remember that from a theoretical standpoint, your working memory is not just this narrow thing that your mind sometimes engages in. It's more like the very platform where conscious cognitive operations are performed.

So from a theoretical standpoint and using a rational argument, increasing the capacity, speed and flexibility of your working memory (i.e. training it), will increase your IQ, as IQ is a time-limited test with multiple different tasks with increasing cognitive load. The point about doing empirical studies is to find out if our theoretical intuitions are somehow completely incorrect, as well as the quantitative aspects of our intuitions (i.e. the exact numbers of how much the training would influence IQ). So in short, we would expect brain training to increase IQ. The empirical questions are mostly about the details.

Let's also look at the general concept of brain training. Doing anything at all (compared to doing nothing) is known to increase your IQ: reading, writing, playing videogames, talking. We know that various forms of childhood neglect destroys IQ. There have been studies of monks who have meditated in caves their whole lives who have an IQ of around 70. So most things in life can be considered brain training. The question is just if you're already doing these things, what more can you do to increase it further? Are there more efficient methods than others? That is where games like N-Back come in.

This also feeds into your point about trying different brain training games. If you're already doing some form of efficient brain training, doing a different type on top of that will probably start to have diminishing returns (like I've pointed out in a previous post with the overlap between different IQ boosting activities). That doesn't mean you shouldn't do them, but if you're maxing out your fatigue quota on one efficient brain training game, you probably won't gain much by trying out another. The question is of course which game is the most efficient and if there are synergistic effects by trying multiple games, but even then, it's probably only minute differences. It's probably more important to focus on maximizing the way you play your chosen game (strategies, time of day, posture, etc.); "do it well". It's a wild example, but just look at Tyler1 reaching 1960 elo in Chess in 9 months by just using one opening (and a really bad one; "the Cow"). That said, I might check out some of the games you mentioned just for curiosity's sake.

Edited June 2 by Carl-Richard

[Epikur]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

We also have to remember that from a theoretical standpoint, your working memory is not just this narrow thing that your mind sometimes engages in. It's more like the very platform where conscious cognitive operations are performed. So from a theoretical standpoint and using a rational argument, increasing the capacity, speed and flexibility of your working memory (i.e. training it), will increase your IQ, as IQ is a time-limited test with multiple different tasks with increasing cognitive load. The point about doing empirical studies is to find out if our theoretical intuitions are somehow completely incorrect, as well as the quantitative aspects of our intuitions (i.e. the exact numbers of how much the training influences IQ or not). So in short, we would expect brain training to increase IQ. The question is mostly about the details.

Let's also look at the general concept of brain training. Doing anything at all (compared to doing nothing) is known to increase your IQ: reading, writing, playing videogames, talking. We know that various forms of child neglect destroys IQ. There have also been studies of monks who have meditated in caves their whole lives who have an IQ of around 70. So most things in life can be considered brain training. The question is just if you're already doing these things, what more can you do to increase it further? Are there more efficient methods than others? And how much can you increase it? That is where games like N-Back comes in.

This also feeds into your point about trying different brain training games. If you're already doing some form of efficient brain training, doing a different type on top of that will probably start to have diminishing returns (like I've pointed out earlier with the overlap between different IQ boosting activities). That doesn't mean you shouldn't do them, but if you're maxing out your fatigue quota on one efficient brain training game, you probably won't gain much by trying out another. The question is of course which game is the most efficient and if there are synergistic effects by trying multiple, but even then, it's probably only minute differences. It's probably more important to focus on maximizing the way you play your chosen game (strategies, time of day, posture, etc.); "do it well". It's a wild example, but just look at Tyler1 reaching 1960 elo in Chess in 9 months by just using one opening (and a really bad one; "the Cow"). That said, I might check out some of the games you mentioned just for curiosity sake.

The games I mentioned are I think memory tests a bit like an IQ test. That is why I think the package of these tests are called 'The human benchmark' though I could be wrong about it. I will check wiki about. So basically these tests would measure how good the Dual N Back training worked. 

The human benchmark does not have professional recognition but it seems the most popular one. Has a big reddit.

Btw I was always interested in the memory techniques like the memory palace but it is too boring and exhausting for me but I will try it but first I want to try the dominiv system that seems to give faster results though it needs a lot of traing too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_system
 

Quote

The Dominic system is a mnemonic system used to remember sequences of digits similar to the mnemonic major system. It was invented and used in competition by eight-time World Memory Champion Dominic O'Brien.[1][2]

Differences from the major system[edit]

The main difference between the Dominic system and the major system is the assignment of sounds and letters to digits. The Dominic system is a letter-based abbreviation system where the letters comprise the initials of someone's name, while the major system is typically used as a phonetic-based consonant system for either objects, animals, persons, or even words. One letter is assigned to each digit; the other sixteen letters of the alphabet are unused.

 

[PenguinPablo]

@Carl-Richard Thanks to you mentioning it I started Dual-n-back

Recently switched to Quad-n-back. That was such a bitch -- but my brain is adapting. Q4B currently.

One of the kids in the InfiniteIQ group quickly got to Q6B. Pretty Insane but said his IQ was like 150.

[Carl-Richard]

13 hours ago, PenguinPablo said:

@Carl-Richard Thanks to you mentioning it I started Dual-n-back

Recently switched to Quad-n-back. That was such a bitch -- but my brain is adapting. Q4B currently.

One of the kids in the InfiniteIQ group quickly got to Q6B. Pretty Insane but said his IQ was like 150.

Cool. What a coincidence that you commented here just now. I was just planning to post something in this topic about a new insight on strategy or more generally how working memory works.

Working memory is often conceived through a quantitative lens in the sense that a better working memory means you can process more things and faster. But I've noticed there is also qualitative aspect that impacts your performance drastically, which I will call "subtlety of processing". It has to do with using the right amount of energy and attention in each action; essentially, elegance (which correlates a lot with mindfulness, which is another way that mindfulness could increase IQ, outside mere DMN de-activation).

You can see this subtlety principle in other activities, like carrying heavy groceries, or sprint training or playing an instrument. If you hold your groceries just right, or if you have just the right sprint form, or if you hold your fingers just loose enough to move effortlessly but firm enough to hit the right notes, then your endurance and general performance will increase.

What this looks like specifically in N-Back training is hard to explain, but it's something like the speed and softness with which you look at each block or rehearse each letter. Nevertheless, I think it's something that can be grasped intuitively, and just becoming aware of it can probably help increase your gains further. In a nutshell: there are different ways to encode and manipulate information that are more subtle or less subtle (and more or less conducive to optimal performance).

Edited July 19 by Carl-Richard

[Epikur]

I am still doing it. I am quite ok with dual 2 back with all options. It took quite a while. I guess my IQ is in the 90s or so. Still the gains are there it helps quite a lot. I feel I operate on a higher level than before. 

Check this guy out his IQ is 100 after doing dual n back but it benefitted him also alot. He gave an interesting insight. He thinks that this training helps to move on from failure because in dual b back you have no time to linger on your failure you have to move on. This he says helps in your dialy life too.

 

Edited July 19 by Epikur

[PenguinPablo]

@Epikur

On 7/19/2024 at 10:23 AM, Epikur said:

I am still doing it. I am quite ok with dual 2 back with all options. It took quite a while. I guess my IQ is in the 90s or so. Still the gains are there it helps quite a lot. I feel I operate on a higher level than before. 

Check this guy out his IQ is 100 after doing dual n back but it benefitted him also alot. He gave an interesting insight. He thinks that this training helps to move on from failure because in dual b back you have no time to linger on your failure you have to move on. This he says helps in your dialy life too.

 

Keep playing. You might have to train more aggressively to break through plateaus. I struggled a lot between dual 2 back and dual 4 back. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, PenguinPablo said:

@Epikur

Keep playing. You might have to train more aggressively to break through plateaus. I struggled a lot between dual 2 back and dual 4 back. 

Do you feel that you have developed an in-game strategy over time, and do you think it played into breaking through that initial tough spot?

[Ramanujan]

dont let some stupid test depress you. principles are bigger than IQ . live in according with principles and you can prosper . fuck IQ

[caspex]

Don't feel down about it. I know with things like these it's hard not to, even if everyone tells you it doesn't really matter. Deep down it still feels like having higher IQ would have been so much better.

So know this, it's ok.

IQ doesn't measure your intuition your awareness, and even if it did so what? You can develop that. Because ultimately that's what really matters. Realistically you only need enough IQ to survive.

Your not some dumb low functioning human, it's just that dumb low functioning humans also happen to have low IQ. I don't think you'd be low functioning if you were on this forum and moreover had enough confidence to post your score. So don't stress it.

Edited July 24 by caspex

[Chadders]

@Buck Edwards Don’t worry about it. These tests don’t factor in creative intelligence or emotional intelligence 

[PenguinPablo]

@Carl-Richard No