Peter Ralston interview by Leo Gura.

[Osaid]

On 6/2/2024 at 6:01 AM, Water by the River said:

How does a mathematician catch a flock of sheep?

The mathematician builds a small fence around himself, then defines himself to be outside the fence.

😂

Intellect in a nutshell

[Leo Gura]

@Osaid You are engaging in reductionism.

You CAN do that. But then that's all your world will contain. You are choosing to relate to Consciousness that way. Consciousness does not have to limited to your reductions. You create a self-reinforcing reductionist dream, so then that becomes your reality. But that is not my reality because I think bigger than you.

Edited June 4 by Leo Gura

[Osaid]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are engaging in reductionism.

You CAN do that. But then that's all your world will contain. You are choosing to relate to Consciousness that way. Consciousness does not have to limited to your reductions. You create a self-reinforcing reductionist dream, so then that becomes your reality. But that is not my reality because I think bigger than you.

You're the one introducing limitations, not me. 

You're saying consciousness can go higher, which means it can limit itself to being lower. Consciousness is never in time, so there is no such thing.

From your perspective, it might seem limiting, but I am actually trying to point to a complete lack of limitations. Mind and intellect are creating imaginary limitations like "higher" and "lower."

No division/separation means nothing is defining or containing or limiting anything, because there isn't anything separate to do that.

Your world is certainly different from mine, we could say. Because you think differently. But someone who thinks they are a unicorn, isn't a unicorn, even if they think it. Someone who sees water in a mirage, never sees water in a mirage, even if they think it. They just think and assume in both cases. No one is ever contained by what they think, by the very nature of being conscious and being aware. That's what absolute means.

Edited June 4 by Osaid

[Leo Gura]

If consciousness cannot lower itself it cannot dream, which would be the ultimate limit.

Just the fact that you were born is proof that consciousness can lower and limit itself.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that all these humans are deluded and unenlightend and then claim that consciousness cannot be low.

Edited June 4 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

9 hours ago, Bandman said:

there should be a ban on buddhist dogma about consciousness on this forum just as there are bans about other religious dogmas.

Pleading for: Innocent.

You know, admitted to killing the Buddha:

On 1.6.2024 at 0:14 PM, Water by the River said:

And there is not just "one" Buddhism. There exist so many schools, with development over millenia. And btw. Jainism is so similiar to Buddhism that there are doubts that the historical Buddha even existed (because Buddhas story is pretty much exactly the same as the story of the founder of Jainism Vardhamana Mahavira, see below in blue) or if it is just a founding myth. A framework.

@Leo Gura: One of your favourite Buddhism-extremist-reductionist afficionados just killed the Buddha. And requests to be promoted to part-time Buddhist-Iconoclast. And maybe Nondual-Enlightement-Reductionist. But no longer Buddhist reductionist, because, you know, got kicked out of the club for killing the Buddha . And he even delivered some juicy books with a lot of aliens&faries&angels&demons inside as atonement. Oh my, I hope you get my humor 

 

For killing the Buddha softly, see for example "Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana":

Oh s***, got off the hook for Buddh-ISM, but admitted intentional homicide Buddhacide.

With a secondary prosecution for being deluded & LARPing (hey, where did your more juicy post of yesterday go? Got censored? Watched the maturity-video again? Anyway, thanks for version 2.0 and for keeping the energy level here a bit more on the nice & respectful side. Also the congregation of True God-Realization and n+1 AWAKENING needs mature & polite members & expression for public relations reasons).

Anyway my friend, it is all good man. Just continue watching the show here, maybe one can deduct a thing or two on how it all develops concerning the major protagonists, their peace of mind, and and the crocodiles of life.

 

Drowning the Buddha by the River

[Osaid]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that all these humans are deluded and unenlightend and then claim that consciousness cannot be low.

The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. You can't imagine what you are.

Thoughts can describe unenlightened humans, and so humans are able to believe it through their imaginative capacity. In the same way how you could ask someone if they experience the past, and they'll say that they do, even though it is technically never experienced. Thoughts describe the past, but no one truly experiences the past.

Thoughts describe, but what is described is never experienced. Nonetheless, thoughts still describe. And humans can think. And so, the trickiness of enlightenment ensues.

It's not a matter of lower or higher consciousness, it's a matter of seeing that you weren't ever lower or higher in the first place. It is a complete uprooting of dualism in its entirety, forever.

There are no degrees to realizing that a rope isn't a snake. And no one actually ever experiences a rope which is a snake.

[Leo Gura]

@Osaid If there's no unenlightened humans then no point speaking about enlightenment.

Edited June 4 by Leo Gura

[Salvijus]

Those who think there are no levels of conciousness. And those who think there are levels of consciousness are both right. It just depends on how you look at it. 

Bruh

Edited June 4 by Salvijus

[Water by the River]

Disclaimer: - Fairytale warning -

(Leo, better don't read this. Probably not beneficial for your blood pressure).

 

So here is the fairytale of the Infinite Ocean of Water, Olafs, Alien-Olafs. And Harakiri-Olafs.

 

Lets imagine an Infinite Ocean of Water.

"Degrees" of consciousness is like "degrees" of water.

Water, steam, ice, snowflakes...

and of course: Olafs. Degrees of Olafs:

And all Olafs melt in the end:

 

Most Olafs believe they are Olafs (or Olaf-Aliens, or whatever). And not the Infinite Ocean of water taking form/modulating-itself/appearing itself as Olaf.

So, what do frozen/imagined Olafs like to do?

Most Olafs just play around.

Some Olafs get fascinated by Olafs that look like Alien-Olafs. Some Olafs even become Olafs that understand like Alien-Olaf with special Olaf-food. At least parttime. And then parttime Alien-Olafs can see how the Infinite Ocean does the trick with freezing so the ocean seemingly appears like (illusion) Olafs, and how the Infinite Ocean does its trick it to freeze like the appearing snow-worlds in which the Olafs play. And these Olafs then feel wonderful when basking in this revelation of how the Infinite Ocean does its freezing/manifestation/illusion-tricks. But without the special Olaf-food, they feel like ... Olaf. 

Some Olafs in the next life even BECOME Alien-Olafs.

Then some Olafs even realize and know they are just water. In an Infinite Ocean of Water. And do Harakiri by dissolving their old (mistaken) identity as Olaf, understanding and realizing that all there actually ever is, was and ever will be is Infinite nondual Water/Ocean, which can appear as Olafs dancing & playing around in itself, thinking itself to be Olafs. All the while there always is, was and ever will be only the Infinite Ocean. And when there is no snow/ice/manifestation, the Infinite Ocean isn't even aware of itself, because its colourless, infinite and no contrast to perceive ANY appearing ice/snow. Yet it still is the Infinite Nondual Ocean. Always. Eternal.

And doing all that realizing/dissolving even before old-ice-Olaf melts in the end. And some stupid Olafs of this kind even dare  telling the Alien-chasing-Olafs that they are just Infinite Water/Ocean, so why all the grasping & chasing for Alien-Olaf and its tricks? Why not understand & dissolve Olaf in realtime and relax being the Infinite Ocean WHILE appearing as Olaf?

Is Olaf any different than water? If Olaf melts is he dead? Or is just the illusion he thought he was switched off? What was Olaf really?

Infinite Water. Or Consciousness. Infinite Consciousness.

What is Olaf? What are degress of Olafs (or degrees of consciousness?): Manifestation/appearances of consciousness, manifestations or appearances of Infinite Water/Ocean. Or FORM/manifestation/appearance. FORM. APPEARANCE. TEMPORARY. And nothing more. Illusory and passing/melting expressions of the Infinite Formless Ocean. Appearing illusions made of Infinite Water. The FORMLESS Infinite Ocean is/has no degrees of water/consciousness. Degrees of water (water/ice/snow/Olafs/Alien-Olafs) APPEAR WITHIN "IT", MADE out of "It"/the Infinite Formless Ocean. Which "itself" has no degrees. Its manifestations and appearances do have degrees. And that is what DEGREES of consciousness are. Manifestations. And degrees are not Absolute/Infinite, nor True Being.

Did anything really happen with the Infinite Ocean forming & playing Olaf?

 

So, now the big question is: What is more important:

• Should one now get fascinated and go chasing/becoming the highest Alien-Olaf that the Infinite Ocean of water can manifest? FORM/Manifestation-CHASING.
• Or maybe just realize that the Olaf one believes onself to be is also only just water? And dissolve ones mistaken/wrong/illusionary identity of being an Olaf and realizing ones True Identity as Infinite Water? Realizing Formless Infinite True Being (Infinite Water/Ocean). Because, Olaf was just an illusion? And then dance and play with Elsa (which is also just made out of Infinite Water, and so on)?

Depends on the Karma of the Olaf.

Does the Infinite Ocean care if "he/she/it" appears only a temporary snowball, and not a temporary Olaf? Does it fundamentally change the Infinite Ocean in any way? Does the Infinite Ocean gain or loose anything, besides an illusion? Was the ocean ever afraid of appearing as & believing to be just a snowball, ice-crocodile, or an Olaf? Did it ever rally matter? Obviously not. Else, Olaf wouldn't be here!

Selling Olafs by the River

 

PS: No Olaf has ever been mentioned by Buddhism. So just that the right -ISM is persecuted. Complaints please to Disney!

And what can we do with our temporary Olaf-Form-Appearance-Illusion? For example sing "Let It Go" & dance along with imaginary Elsa!

 

 

Edited June 5 by Water by the River

[Yimpa]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Those who think there are no levels of conciousness. And those who think there are levels of consciousness are both right. It just depends on how you look at it. 

Bruh

https://www.instagram.com/p/C7x6EpGtpLK/?igsh=MWRjaW83ZTk2Z3Nlbw==

[bambi]

9 hours ago, Osaid said:

The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. You can't imagine what you are.

Thoughts can describe unenlightened humans, and so humans are able to believe it through their imaginative capacity. In the same way how you could ask someone if they experience the past, and they'll say that they do, even though it is technically never experienced. Thoughts describe the past, but no one truly experiences the past.

Thoughts describe, but what is described is never experienced. Nonetheless, thoughts still describe. And humans can think. And so, the trickiness of enlightenment ensues.

It's not a matter of lower or higher consciousness, it's a matter of seeing that you weren't ever lower or higher in the first place. It is a complete uprooting of dualism in its entirety, forever.

There are no degrees to realizing that a rope isn't a snake. And no one actually ever experiences a rope which is a snake.

This is literally spiritual bypassing for me, and is endemic within certain groups. Maybe eventually everyone can realise a rope isnt a snake, and at that moment the realisaiton will be made. But people might see a rope moving on the floor in the distance and act and behave as if its a snake, with fear and anxiety.

Its akin to saying no one is alive, because when we are dead we are all dead. Being dead doesnt negate your life. In the same way being Enlightened doesnt negate all those who are unenlightened. 

Its quite clear that there are different experiences fo conciousness that are ubiqitous across humans, theres seperative states of low levels of conciousness: shame, anger, pride, guilt etc, some people live there daily existence locked into this paradigms, and its not fun. Theres also states and experience of less seperation, expansion, love, oneness etc, these are much more pleasurable and enjoyble and some people live as this as their default paradigm

[gettoefl]

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Those who think there are no levels of conciousness. And those who think there are levels of consciousness are both right. It just depends on how you look at it. 

Bruh

egos have infinitely high levels of consciousness while gods have none

[Water by the River]

9 hours ago, Osaid said:

The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. You can't imagine what you are.

Thoughts can describe unenlightened humans, and so humans are able to believe it through their imaginative capacity. In the same way how you could ask someone if they experience the past, and they'll say that they do, even though it is technically never experienced. Thoughts describe the past, but no one truly experiences the past.

Thoughts describe, but what is described is never experienced. Nonetheless, thoughts still describe. And humans can think. And so, the trickiness of enlightenment ensues.

It's not a matter of lower or higher consciousness, it's a matter of seeing that you weren't ever lower or higher in the first place. It is a complete uprooting of dualism in its entirety, forever.

There are no degrees to realizing that a rope isn't a snake. And no one actually ever experiences a rope which is a snake.

6 minutes ago, bambi said:

This is literally spiritual bypassing for me, and is endemic within certain groups. Maybe eventually everyone can realise a rope isnt a snake, and at that moment the realisaiton will be made. But people might see a rope moving on the floor in the distance and act and behave as if its a snake, with fear and anxiety.

Its akin to saying no one is alive, because when we are dead we are all dead. Being dead doesnt negate your life. In the same way being Enlightened doesnt negate all those who are unenlightened. 

Its quite clear that there are different experiences fo conciousness that are ubiqitous across humans, theres seperative states of low levels of conciousness: shame, anger, pride, guilt etc, some people live there daily existence locked into this paradigms, and its not fun. Theres also states and experience of less seperation, expansion, love, oneness etc, these are much more pleasurable and enjoyble and some people live as this as their default paradigm

ok, here my Olaf-version-take:

"The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. "

There appear Olafs who have appearances of thinking/believing they are separate Olafs, so one could say there are unenlightened Olafs.

But since there is only the Infinite Ocean freezing to an imagined Olaf, watching its own substance while doing so in a nondual way, actually there is no (unenlightened) Olaf. It just appears to be so.

Actually, there are just some perspectives of Infinite Being ("humans" or Olafs) that have I-thougt/I-feeling-arisings (which makes them believe to be a human/Olaf) in their perspective/mindstream, while forgetting in real-time ("in-space") all other perspectives appearing in their Infinite Being. While being also these perspectives at the same time. Indras Infinite Net of Olaf-perspectives.

And then one could have Olafs observing or contemplating all of that. But since there are no actual Olafs, but only the Infinite Ocean, there is in reality no Olaf observing unenlightened Olafs. Only the Infinite Ocean having fooling-itself-thought-feelings-arisings appearing in its Infinite Being.

So its basically appearing Olafs talking to themselves, while there is only one Infinite Being, splicing itself up in infinite perspectives. The Infinite Ocean modulating itself as "freezing Olaf-appearances" and wondering what it really is. And what those other Olafs are.

And for an Olaf to verify that for itself beyond any doubt, an Olaf normally need considerable time in nondual impersonal awakened states.

Selling Olaf-ISM by the River 

[Leo Gura]

Somewhere in a river a lonely crocodile dreams of eating a Buddhist.

That crocodile is my spirit animal.

[Water by the River]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Somewhere in a river a lonely crocodile dreams of eating a Buddhist.

That crocodile is my spirit animal.

Thailand’s crocodile temple: huge reptiles make themselves at home in Buddhist place of worship:

[Inliytened1]

@Osaid the funny thing is if you meditated focusing on the now you could literally become the now and there would be a shift into what you could call God Consciousness or Infinite Consciousness.   What do you think the now is - its Being or Infinity.  That is a different or higher state of Consciousness  - because the ego illusion that limits the mind is gone..and there are infinite degrees of this. And yes right "now" I'm imagining this but as Leo said imagination is also the Absolute.   Everything is the Absolute.   It just hinders your growth to downplay imagination and just talk about the now being all that's real.   That's a big trap or a non-dualist trap you can fall into.

Edited June 4 by Inliytened1

[UnbornTao]

On 01/06/2024 at 11:57 PM, BlessedLion said:

Wilber isn’t lost in his mind he just knows how to use it 

That may be the case but it doesn't mean you're enlightened or that you're using effective distinctions and talking about something real and grounded, even if it is abstract. Consciousness can't be mapped, so that emphasis is off-putting and misleading from the get-go. Certain foundational, flawed assumptions may be conceded with such an undertaking. Although he sounds to be stuck in intellect, Wilber does seem to be a smart guy overall. But hey, either you grasp your nature for real or you don't, no matter what others, including yourself, say or have heard.

Edited June 7 by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

It is useful to make some maps of consciousness, but once you get advanced you will have to let them go to really go deep into uncharted waters.

A map will limit your ability to imagine new types of consciousness. For example, insanity is not on any spiritual map, and yet it is a very serious and advanced domain.

Humans don't even understand what sanity is. Not to mention much more radical forms of consciousness.

One time I became so conscious that I discovered something I called the inverse of consciousness. Which no one here even knows is possible.

Edited June 4 by Leo Gura

[Francis777]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

insanity is not on any spiritual map.

how long were you in a state of insanity the first time it happened to you?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Francis777 said:

how long were you in a state of insanity the first time it happened to you?

Not very long, maybe 15-30 mins. But it can feel subjectively longer because it feels like you're stuck there forever.

Edited June 4 by Leo Gura