Peter Ralston interview by Leo Gura.

[Francis777]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not very long, maybe 15-30 mins. But it can feel subjectively longer because it feels like you're stuck there forever.

is it terrifying?

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Francis777 said:

is it terrifying?

Oh yeah

[bambi]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

ok, here my Olaf-version-take:

"The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. "

There appear Olafs who have appearances of thinking/believing they are separate Olafs, so one could say there are unenlightened Olafs.

But since there is only the Infinite Ocean freezing to an imagined Olaf, watching its own substance while doing so in a nondual way, actually there is no (unenlightened) Olaf. It just appears to be so.

Actually, there are just some perspectives of Infinite Being ("humans" or Olafs) that have I-thougt/I-feeling-arisings (which makes them believe to be a human/Olaf) in their perspective/mindstream, while forgetting in real-time ("in-space") all other perspectives appearing in their Infinite Being. While being also these perspectives at the same time. Indras Infinite Net of Olaf-perspectives.

And then one could have Olafs observing or contemplating all of that. But since there are no actual Olafs, but only the Infinite Ocean, there is in reality no Olaf observing unenlightened Olafs. Only the Infinite Ocean having fooling-itself-thought-feelings-arisings appearing in its Infinite Being.

So its basically appearing Olafs talking to themselves, while there is only one Infinite Being, splicing itself up in infinite perspectives. The Infinite Ocean modulating itself as "freezing Olaf-appearances" and wondering what it really is. And what those other Olafs are.

And for an Olaf to verify that for itself beyond any doubt, an Olaf normally need considerable time in nondual impersonal awakened states.

Selling Olaf-ISM by the River 

All of this is cheap langugae games of humans lost in abstraction.

Sure from the ultimate perspective there are no unenlightned beings, and this can be your perspective when you are enlightened

Or from the perspective of deaht there is no life lol do you see the insanity???

There is no life when you are dead. But right now you are alive so dont worry about your death, worry about your life

Right now you are lost inseperation and suffering so dont worry about the absolute perspective, worry about your seperation and suffering, deal with this first

I think thats why the historical Buddha refused metahpysical discourse, its just a massive circle jerk of abstraction and self-delusion with no action, doesnt lead anywhere

[Salvijus]

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, bambi said:

I think thats why the historical Buddha refused metahpysical discourse, its just a massive circle jerk of abstraction and self-delusion with no action, doesnt lead anywhere

That is true. Without action/meditation/practice/Awakening it is just empty theory.

But since I engage in metaphysical discourse, maybe that saves me from being labeled "Buddhist"? 

[Osaid]

5 hours ago, bambi said:

This is literally spiritual bypassing for me

Nothing like "spiritual bypassing" was suggested.

5 hours ago, bambi said:

But people might see a rope moving on the floor in the distance and act and behave as if its a snake, with fear and anxiety.

Yes. Anxiety is felt. That doesn't mean the cause is true or existential. Emotions are not being discounted. Self-inquiry and other spiritual practices help guide people away from imagining snakes, so to speak.

5 hours ago, bambi said:

Its quite clear that there are different experiences fo conciousness that are ubiqitous across humans, theres seperative states of low levels of conciousness: shame, anger, pride, guilt etc, some people live there daily existence locked into this paradigms, and its not fun. Theres also states and experience of less seperation, expansion, love, oneness etc, these are much more pleasurable and enjoyble and some people live as this as their default paradigm

There are different experiences, but none of them really involve a separate self.

The belief that there are separate selves causes the unpleasant emotion.

Just like how believing a rope is a snake never involves an actual snake.

People can believe in separate selves, and people can believe in unicorns, but neither of which are ever actually seen or experienced. It's how the belief feels. Someone who believes there is a bear in their closet will feel fear, because that is how the assumption feels. Realizing that there is no bear in the closet feels like relief, because the belief/assumption stops operating.

Emotions are very important, but that's probably for another conversation.

Edited June 4 by Osaid

[Clarence]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

One time I became so conscious that I discovered something I called the inverse of consciousness. Which no one here even knows is possible.

How was this like? Could you tell more about it? It's a very curious expression.

[Yimpa]

That’s the irony… there’s no one here!

[bambi]

56 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Nothing like "spiritual bypassing" was suggested.

Yes. Anxiety is felt. That doesn't mean the cause is true or existential. Emotions are not being discounted. Self-inquiry and other spiritual practices help guide people away from imagining snakes, so to speak.

There are different experiences, but none of them really involve a separate self.

The belief that there are separate selves causes the unpleasant emotion.

Just like how believing a rope is a snake never involves an actual snake.

People can believe in separate selves, and people can believe in unicorns, but neither of which are ever actually seen or experienced. It's how the belief feels. Someone who believes there is a bear in their closet will feel fear, because that is how the assumption feels. Realizing that there is no bear in the closet feels like relief, because the belief/assumption stops operating.

Emotions are very important, but that's probably for another conversation.

Belief is such a gross reduction and oversimplifcaiton of what is actually going on. Your mind literally distorts reality, your being is the lens to reality. And your being can be highly contracted and in pain and feel seperated. It is the opposite of a surface level belief. You cant think your way to enlightenment. Its deeply embodied emotional-energetic-conciouses perspective in felt sense of identity and all that it entails: beliefs, emotions, energy, perspectives.

Working on the level of emotion,  behaviour, intention and experience is way more powerful then simply 'belief' IME, YMMV

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

[Inliytened1]

16 hours ago, Osaid said:

The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. You can't imagine what you are.

 

As @Water by the River stated there is appearance...And appearance is reality so that's not a delusion.  A better word is that the illusion is that there are humans that are unenlightened (or enlightened)  This illusuon is the dream and the dream is appearance.  Appearance without substance.  Hallucination.  That's what everything is.  But the dream IS REALITY.   Illusion IS reality!   Hallucination IS fucking reality! 

Edited June 4 by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Somewhere in a river a lonely crocodile dreams of eating a Buddhist.

That crocodile is my spirit animal.

Somewhere deep in the woods there dwells a wolf - eyes, a cold, ice blue.   He dreams only to devour alien beings.   For only aliens can be his prey.   This is my spirit animal.  And one day the Buddha stumbles foolishly into the wolf's den - but the wolf only stares sharply at him, curiously, and snarls.

Edited June 4 by Inliytened1

[Osaid]

2 hours ago, bambi said:

It is the opposite of a surface level belief. You cant think your way to enlightenment. Its deeply embodied emotional-energetic-conciouses perspective in felt sense of identity and all that it entails: beliefs, emotions, energy, perspectives.

3 hours ago, bambi said:

Working on the level of emotion,  behaviour, intention and experience is way more powerful then simply 'belief' IME, YMMV

It's the base assumption that you can imagine "yourself" in past and future which creates emotions like anxiety.

It's the assumption that you can imagine yourself which causes a butterfly effect of behaviors and feelings.

Self-inquiry, meditation, etc., helps to create disillusionment from thoughts, and slowly creates distance between thoughts about self. That is why you will see incremental emotional improvements in meditators, similar to therapy.

Enlightenment isn't about thinking or adopting some ideology, it's about a clear binary perception that you could never imagine yourself. And that, in turn, completely transforms how you feel emotions as well, and completely eliminates anxiety, for example. Meditation can help create enough "distance" for that perception to occur, although it's not truly mandatory. 

[Osaid]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

And appearance is reality so that's not a delusion.

Appearance is now. That's why it is appearing.

Now is never "not now", although thoughts can appear as "not now."

Example, "yesterday", "tomorrow", "past", "future", etc.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Osaid said:

It's the base assumption that you can imagine "yourself" in past and future which creates emotions like anxiety.
 

It does but so what. Maybe anxiety can be embraced?  If you only realize that this is an illusion of the mind can you both embrace and transcend.  Meaning feel fucking free to imagine but realize it comes with a price..the price of fooling yourself.  But also know that you cam rise above that and thus should not dismiss anything at all.

 

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Appearance is now. That's why it is appearing.

Now is never "not now", although thoughts can appear as "not now."

Example, "yesterday", "tomorrow", "past", "future", etc.

Everything is now.  I never said otherwise.   I said you were saying that imagination was delusion.   Imagination is now.  Imagination is what everything is around you.  And everything that isn't.  It is total. 

[Yimpa]

Let’s start a petition for Peter Ralston interviews Leo Gura!

[Inliytened1]

17 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Let’s start a petition for Peter Ralston interviews Leo Gura!

He's so boring.  You really lack for nothing with Leo.

Edited June 5 by Inliytened1

[Osaid]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Everything is now.  I never said otherwise.   I said you were saying that imagination was delusion.   Imagination is now.  Imagination is what everything is around you.  And everything that isn't.  It is total. 

It's not simply that imagination is delusion or that it's unreal or something. It's that you can't imagine something that isn't happening right now, and the belief that you can is "delusion."

No one ever experiences something that isn't happening now, that is the assumption/delusion/belief which needs to be seen through. When you identify as something you aren't, you aren't actually that identity since that identification is happening now. All is subject to now, even if you think otherwise.

Edited June 5 by Osaid

[Inliytened1]

8 hours ago, Osaid said:

It's not simply that imagination is delusion or that it's unreal or something. It's that you can't imagine something that isn't happening right now, and the belief that you can is "delusion."
 

Well of course.  That is the essence of solipsism.   When we imagine others it is nothing else but our own mind.  But it is not delusion.  It is the dream.  

Edited June 5 by Inliytened1