Peter Ralston interview by Leo Gura.

[BlessedLion]

@Water by the River why not explore and go deeper into both up and down? 

[UnbornTao]

On 01/06/2024 at 4:31 PM, Water by the River said:

Wilber, One Taste: Daily Reflections on Integral Spirituality

"As one who has written extensively about the interior life, meditation, and psychotherapy, Ken Wilber—the leading theorist in the field of integral psychology—naturally arouses the curiosity of his numerous readers. In response to this curiosity, this one-year diary not only offers an unprecedented entrée into his private world, but offers an introduction to his essential thought. "If there is a theme to this journal," Wilber writes, "it is that body, mind, and the luminosities of the soul—all are perfect expressions of the Radiant Spirit that alone inhabits the universe, sublime gestures of that Great Perfection that alone outshines the world."

Wilber's personal writings include:

   •  Details of his own spiritual practice
   •  Advice to spiritual seekers
   •  Reflections on his work and that of other prominent theorists in the field of integral psychology
   •  His day-to-day personal experiences
   •  Dozens of his short theoretical essays on topics from art to feminism to spirituality to psychotherapy"

I consider other teachers such as Vernon Howard and Adyashanti to be more authentic and grounded, but thanks for the recommendation. 

Selling Cosmologies By The River

Edited June 6 by UnbornTao

[BlessedLion]

“Just to conceptually grasp what he's said in the first half (100 pages) took me 15-20 hours (that's about 10x the time it takes to just read 100 pages). But I was super careful in not letting a single phrase slide with being misinterpreted or missed entirely.”

 

This guy knows how to read Ralston

[BlessedLion]

@MsNobody I felt that way when I started Religion of Tomorrow, but Wilber is top 3 in the world, at least in teachers. He has such a deep grasp on all of this material and is the only teacher to truly lay out and address both the horizontal (being a human) and vertical (being consciousness) 

 

He does seem to struggle with making it understandable and easy to read but I think that’s just because he’s such a genius. 
 

[BlessedLion]

@bambi I understand what you’re requesting but it’s hard to answer. It’s like requesting me to draw in a page the dimensions of the depths of the ocean. 
 

I’ve spent 6 weeks with Ralston in person and read all his major books, some many times over. 
 

Slowly he begins to change your whole way of thinking and looking at reality. I can tell you it is NOT like other spiritual books, at all. It’s another beast completely. He fucks your whole mind open. 
 

On his retreats I had awakenings daily, and it’s not just enlightenment. We dove into the illusory nature of language, identity, emotions, space, social constructs, perception, basically how the whole thing works, not just what it is (awareness, nothingness)- as other spiritual books and @Water by the River would tell you

[RightHand]

Just finished the interview. This guy seems amazing! Super charismatic and well accomplished too.

Just the fact that people like that exist makes me appreciate consciousness more.

 

 

 

 

[Water by the River]

8 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

This is the point though! The point is to wave surf! 
 

Do you think God (You) is stupid and would just create the waves for something to be tireing? It’s imporant to know how the car functions (wheels/enlightenment) but take the fucking thing for a drive and explore the roads. 
 

I think this is what Leo is saying he’s doing. 

Yes, the point of the game/Lila is to wave-surf, while believing one is the wave.

Until one realizes that all that wave surfing doesn't bring the permanent bliss that ones True Being yearns for, but leads to exhaustion. Or burnout.

A variant of that is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_hedonism

Why is that? Only being what one really is releases the tension of the separate-self.

Normally that takes decades of gaining maturity, but it can also be shortcut with insight. If one (or ones Karma to be precise) resonates with that.

In the end, only dropping into the Infinite Ocean and dissolving in Infinite Being brings the final deliverance.

And paradoxically, the journey doesn't end here. It just starts. From caterpillar to butterfly. One can perfect ones chosen wave-surfing, but without the contraction and the suffering of being just a wave or a self-contraction, but being the Infinite Ocean itself.

Selling wave-surfing while being the Infinite Ocean 

 

PS: Watched your youtube-channel a bit. You are truly a Blessed Lion!

 

"Wilber on ones chosen wave-surfing after having dissolved in the Infinite Ocean: Wilber, Eye of Spirit.

And It Is All Undone
Perhaps you will arise as any or all of those forms of ever-present awareness.
But then, it doesn’t really matter. When you rest in the brilliant clarity of
ever-present awareness, you are not Buddha or Bodhisattva, you are not this
or that, you are not here or there. When you rest in simple, ever-present
awareness, you are the great Unborn, free of all qualities whatsoever. Aware
of color, you are colorless. Aware of time, you are timeless. Aware of form,
you are formless. In the vast expanse of primordial Emptiness, you are
forever invisible to this world.
It is simply that, as embodied being, you also arise in the world of form
that is your own manifestation. And the intrinsic potentials of the enlightened
mind (the intrinsic potentials of your ever-present awareness)—such as
equanimity, discriminating wisdom, mirrorlike wisdom, ground
consciousness, and all-accomplishing awareness—various of these potentials
combine with the native dispositions and particular talents of your own
individual bodymind. And thus, when the separate self dies into the vast
expanse of its own ever-present awareness, you will arise animated by any or
all of those various enlightened potentials. You are then motivated, not by the
Great Search, but by the Great Compassion of these potentials, some of
which are gentle, some of which are truly wrathful, but all of which are
simply the possibilities of your own ever-present state.
And thus, resting in simple, clear, ever-present awareness, you will arise
with the qualities and virtues of your own highest potentials—perhaps
compassion, perhaps discriminating wisdom, perhaps cognitive insight,
perhaps healing presence, perhaps wrathful reminder, perhaps artistic
accomplishment, perhaps athletic skill, perhaps great educator, or perhaps
something utterly simple, maybe being the best flower gardener on the block.
(In other words, any of the developmental lines released into their own
primordial state, released into their own post-postconventional condition.)
When the bodymind is released from the brutalities inflicted by the selfcontraction,
it naturally gravitates to its own highest estate, manifested in the
great potentials of the enlightened mind, the great potentials of simple, everpresent
awareness.
Thus, as you rest in simple, ever-present awareness, you are the great
Unborn; but as you are born—as you arise from ever-present awareness—
you will manifest certain qualities, qualities inherent in intrinsic Spirit, and
qualities colored by the dispositions of your own bodymind and its particular
talents."

Leo for example would for sure continue exploring the Multiverse. But without a burnout & exhaustion, and totally at peace, loving, compassionate and blissful. Totally happy in being only part-time Alien, and mostly part-time human, and perfectly happy with that. Because it is a unique place to be at. The Alien can not be part-time human and tell about that, at least not so easily as somebody with a more "full-time" denser human body. Lovely book on these topics, from a gentlemen way wiser than Water by the River: Spangler, Subtle Worlds: An Explorer’s Field Notes.

What will the Blessed Lion do? That is up for you to unpack and explore. Individuality and uniqueness is never lost in Enlightenment, only separation. Bon Voyage!

Edited June 2 by Water by the River

[Javfly33]

8 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

This dude is woke af 

😂

8 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

@Javfly33 when you say you are consciousness creating a hand, are you admitting you have no control over it? Like how you have control over the words you type?

 

Whats willing consciousness? 

The ego mind has no control over it that´s for sure. 

Consciousness is a will on its own. 

Quote

What’s willing those limitations? 

What limitations? 

[Water by the River]

10 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

@Water by the River what is your take on enlightenment versus God realization? I’m curious. Realizing you are the ocean and wave surfing. How is God realization different from wave surfing ? 

God Realization from what I have seen is just understanding more than the usual psychedelic Awakening (where one just projects an ego in nondual unity on the visual field or Nothingness or whatever). Like, how one imagines the past real time right now (which one does, and it doesn't exist anywhere else). And how one imagines everything else just to fool oneself (like parents, job, being a person,...).

The problem with God Realization is: There remains a subtle "realizer" of all of that. Very subtle, very hard to transcend, since this is just a totally empty "Individuality". That is the last hindrance to Enlightenment, which then is therefor also stable if that element is seen through. Wilber calls it Empty Witness (see for example Religion of the Future). But not fully transparent and fully boundless nondual without individuality.

And that is why God Realization is not stable sobre. These remaining separate-self elements kill the Awakened nondual states after the trip.

In Enlightenment, all of that is totally obvious, and since these components are in place, or rather there illusion-counter-components (like self-existing personality, space, time, outer world, duality/out-thereness) are seen through in real time. Below, the outcome first, and then which kind of illusion-part of the separte-self structure it shuts off.

• Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left),
• Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and
• Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined.
• Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being.
• Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities)
• Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations".
  • That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics.

And all of these states and/or insights above one can happpen one at a time, or two, or three combined...  Any combination possible, and that creates the myriad of half-baked and different Awakening & (smaller) Enlightenment-descriptions ("Kenshos in Zen"). Ever heard some people have new Awakenings all the time? That is that.

• For truly awakening to what one truly is, beyond any doubt, one needs all of them. When that Waking Up happens, it is definitive. Because it kills the former illusion of being a separate-anything. That can never be believed again. It is dead. It always ever was an illusion. Even the God-realized ego/separate-self. All a dream. There was never anything else than the Infinite Ocean of Being, formerly with ignorance and illusion arising within it, and now back to the real state of "things", the ignorance no longer arising.

Basically, one gets all facets of the Infinite Absolute True Being all at once, and once this happens Infinite Being is totally obvious. It is You. All of it. And can't get more Infinite than Infinite and more eternal than eternal, that is why it is final. The rest is just more appearance IN You (or consciousness OF x, man, woman, Alien, Alien n+1,...). Interesting for sure, but not so urgent. Got Eternity and Infinity to explore, remember? 

And even if getting distracted by the Lila-show for a moment, "it" is "just there", by just reaching out and killing the illusion-aspect that got re-established by just looking into its nature and just finding the Infinite Ocean of Awareness-Being. Your True Self.

So in summary, God-Realization as used here, is a step in the right direction, but it is still not true Enlightenment. Of course, what is sold as Enlightenment is in 80%-90%+ cases not Enlightenment as waking up out of the dream, but just some nondual "Awakening". A dual dream has become a nondual dreaming. Dreaming nonetheless. What Leo calls (correctly) nondual BS. Zen differentiates between Enlightenments (Kenshos), and fully waking up (calling that Great Enlightenment). Only in the latter one there is waking up from the dream. With the former one, a nondual, or god-realized, or whatever ego/separate-self continues dreaming its nondual dream... Lovely place to be at, but still a dream 

So God Realization is between the naive nondual-Enlightenments with a dreamer still well and alive dreaming nondual-unity-dream, and true waking-up Enlightenment is beyond God Realization, since even the "subtle" one having the God-Realization is seen through as more dreaming. And one can wake up only once, then any separate-anything illusion is ruined for good. That illusions never recovers its fully. And then, one can go still playing with the Aliens for ever new insights, if one is so inclined...

So it is tricky, because Leo basically has a Pre-Trans-Confusion in Wilbers lingo. Sorry Leo, but needs to be said.

• God-Realization is "higher" than a standard nondual-awakening (Nondual Unity Awakening of ego still believing its background story like parents, world, others). These are the Nonduality or Enlightenment-Fundamentalists he criticizes.
• but it is lower than True Enlightenment, since the final individuality/separate-self/God-realized-ego is not seen through. And once the psychedelic state delivering most of the items listed above wears off, this remaining not seen-through-in-real-time individuality/separte-self/ego kills the awakened state.
• and since it is all very subtle and impossible to fully understand without having had these awakened states, it is also IMPOSSIBLE to understand True Enlightenment from the perspective of God-Realization before it truly happens (else, one would be already fully enlightened when having seen through the last subtle elements of separation/individuality), Water by the River recommends the age-old recipe of Matthew 7:15-20 "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits". 

And the proof for that is: Psychedelic Godrealization doesn't last. When the psychedlic wears off, the filters/lenses/contraction of the remaining separate self/ego kick back in, and bye bye awakened nondual states (the ones listed above). And even during "God-Realization", the remaining individual projects itself mightily on all these insights. And then we get Infinity of Gods and stuff not for the faint-of-hearted as compensation.

While there is only one Being/Reality, we now have an Infinity of "god-realized" egos. Basically, God-Realization never gets rid of the Individuality/Separation fully, there is always a subtle "someone" having all these realizations.

Selling "going all the way" by the River

 

PS: Roger Thisdells version of that.

vs. 

 

Even the God-realized ones need to fully jump into the mixer Void

PS PS:

https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="God Realization"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy

Edited June 2 by Water by the River

[Javfly33]

 

 

 

Quote

The problem with God Realization is: There remains a subtle "realizer" of all of that. Very subtle, very hard to transcend, since this is just a totally empty "Individuality". That is the last hindrance to Enlightenment, which then is therefor also stable if that element is seen through

Which would be a pity to not go all the way after having all those trips of God Realization or 'almost-there but not Fully there'. 

Quote

While there is only one Being/Reality, we now have an Infinity of "god-realized" egos.

Much of actualized forum 😬

Quote

Selling "going all the way" by the River

God-Realized ones are not interested in going all the way because they would lose their throne of their non-duality kingdom 😂 👇

Quote

With the former one, a nondual, or god-realized, or whatever ego/separate-self continues dreaming its nondual dream... Lovely place to be at, but still a dream 

 

 

Quote

Even the God-realized ones need to fully jump into the mixer Void

😂

[Davino]

@Water by the River Have you ever God-Awoke?

For real, don't bullshit me. Have you Realized you are God and that God is all there is and all that God entails? If so, What is God? If not, what are you even talking about?

You see, Godliness is a very specific no return point.

 

[bambi]

9 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

@bambi I understand what you’re requesting but it’s hard to answer. It’s like requesting me to draw in a page the dimensions of the depths of the ocean. 
 

I’ve spent 6 weeks with Ralston in person and read all his major books, some many times over. 
 

Slowly he begins to change your whole way of thinking and looking at reality. I can tell you it is NOT like other spiritual books, at all. It’s another beast completely. He fucks your whole mind open. 
 

On his retreats I had awakenings daily, and it’s not just enlightenment. We dove into the illusory nature of language, identity, emotions, space, social constructs, perception, basically how the whole thing works, not just what it is (awareness, nothingness)- as other spiritual books and @Water by the River would tell you

Thanks. Guess it just seems like a circle jerk without substance, people keep parroting generic superlatives but dont or cant explain in any capacity what about his work they liked or find useful. Which means A) they simply didnt understand it, or dont have the capacity to explain it, B) it doesnt have the substance they claim it has

Your last paragraph is more clear though, so thanks.

[bambi]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

God Realization from what I have seen is just understanding more than the usual psychedelic Awakening (where one just projects an ego in nondual unity on the visual field or Nothingness or whatever). Like, how one imagines the past real time right now (which one does, and it doesn't exist anywhere else). And how one imagines everything else just to fool oneself (like parents, job, being a person,...).

The problem with God Realization is: There remains a subtle "realizer" of all of that. Very subtle, very hard to transcend, since this is just a totally empty "Individuality". That is the last hindrance to Enlightenment, which then is therefor also stable if that element is seen through. Wilber calls it Empty Witness (see for example Religion of the Future). But not fully transparent and fully boundless nondual without individuality.

And that is why God Realization is not stable sobre. These remaining separate-self elements kill the Awakened nondual states after the trip.

In Enlightenment, all of that is totally obvious, and since these components are in place, or rather there illusion-counter-components (like self-existing personality, space, time, outer world, duality/out-thereness) are seen through in real time. Below, the outcome first, and then which kind of illusion-part of the separte-self structure it shuts off.

• Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left),
• Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and
• Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined.
• Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being.
• Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities)
• Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations".
  • That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics.

And all of these states and/or insights above one can happpen one at a time, or two, or three combined...  Any combination possible, and that creates the myriad of half-baked and different Awakening & (smaller) Enlightenment-descriptions ("Kenshos in Zen"). Ever heard some people have new Awakenings all the time? That is that.

• For truly awakening to what one truly is, beyond any doubt, one needs all of them. When that Waking Up happens, it is definitive. Because it kills the former illusion of being a separate-anything. That can never be believed again. It is dead. It always ever was an illusion. Even the God-realized ego/separate-self. All a dream. There was never anything else than the Infinite Ocean of Being, formerly with ignorance and illusion arising within it, and now back to the real state of "things", the ignorance no longer arising.

Basically, one gets all facets of the Infinite Absolute True Being all at once, and once this happens Infinite Being is totally obvious. It is You. All of it. And can't get more Infinite than Infinite and more eternal than eternal, that is why it is final. The rest is just more appearance IN You (or consciousness OF x, man, woman, Alien, Alien n+1,...). Interesting for sure, but not so urgent. Got Eternity and Infinity to explore, remember? 

And even if getting distracted by the Lila-show for a moment, "it" is "just there", by just reaching out and killing the illusion-aspect that got re-established by just looking into its nature and just finding the Infinite Ocean of Awareness-Being. Your True Self.

So in summary, God-Realization as used here, is a step in the right direction, but it is still not true Enlightenment. Of course, what is sold as Enlightenment is in 80%-90%+ cases not Enlightenment as waking up out of the dream, but just some nondual "Awakening". A dual dream has become a nondual dreaming. Dreaming nonetheless. What Leo calls (correctly) nondual BS. Zen differentiates between Enlightenments (Kenshos), and fully waking up (calling that Great Enlightenment). Only in the latter one there is waking up from the dream. With the former one, a nondual, or god-realized, or whatever ego/separate-self continues dreaming its nondual dream... Lovely place to be at, but still a dream 

So God Realization is between the naive nondual-Enlightenments with a dreamer still well and alive dreaming nondual-unity-dream, and true waking-up Enlightenment is beyond God Realization, since even the "subtle" one having the God-Realization is seen through as more dreaming. And one can wake up only once, then any separate-anything illusion is ruined for good. That illusions never recovers its fully. And then, one can go still playing with the Aliens for ever new insights, if one is so inclined...

So it is tricky, because Leo basically has a Pre-Trans-Confusion in Wilbers lingo. Sorry Leo, but needs to be said.

• God-Realization is "higher" than a standard nondual-awakening (Nondual Unity Awakening of ego still believing its background story like parents, world, others). These are the Nonduality or Enlightenment-Fundamentalists he criticizes.
• but it is lower than True Enlightenment, since the final individuality/separate-self/God-realized-ego is not seen through. And once the psychedelic state delivering most of the items listed above wears off, this remaining not seen-through-in-real-time individuality/separte-self/ego kills the awakened state.
• and since it is all very subtle and impossible to fully understand without having had these awakened states, it is also IMPOSSIBLE to understand True Enlightenment from the perspective of God-Realization before it truly happens (else, one would be already fully enlightened when having seen through the last subtle elements of separation/individuality), Water by the River recommends the age-old recipe of Matthew 7:15-20 "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits". 

And the proof for that is: Psychedelic Godrealization doesn't last. When the psychedlic wears off, the filters/lenses/contraction of the remaining separate self/ego kick back in, and bye bye awakened nondual states (the ones listed above). And even during "God-Realization", the remaining individual projects itself mightily on all these insights. And then we get Infinity of Gods and stuff not for the faint-of-hearted as compensation.

While there is only one Being/Reality, we now have an Infinity of "god-realized" egos. Basically, God-Realization never gets rid of the Individuality/Separation fully, there is always a subtle "someone" having all these realizations.

Selling "going all the way" by the River

 

PS: Roger Thisdells version of that.

vs. 

 

Even the God-realized ones need to fully jump into the mixer Void

PS PS:

https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="God Realization"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy

Thanks for this post, this is my understanding of it all too. What and where is the role in pyschedelics along the journey then?

[Water by the River]

38 minutes ago, Davino said:

Have you ever God-Awoke?

I preferred Harakiri. Which had paradoxically quite similiar results. Even pretty stable results.

That move enabled also to stay a bit more to the humble side. A bit. Since the other side of the spectrum is a bit overloaded with Godrealized egos, so its not really comfy & spacy there.

39 minutes ago, Davino said:

For real, don't bullshit me.

Sir, my friend, I bullshit you not. 

39 minutes ago, Davino said:

Have you Realized you are God and that God is all there is and all that God entails?

 

Well, if we go "full God mode", lets do it with style:

Show me anything that is not included in Infinite Being. Then I will allow myself to show you the mixer.

40 minutes ago, Davino said:

You see, Godliness is a very specific no return point.

Yes, the real thing comes "after" the mixer/Void:

And only God remains. Which is an oxymoron, because there is and ever was and ever will be only Infinite Being. Or God.

Or raspberry.

 

Lets call it Infinite Being. Raspberry is maybe not perfect, and God is a bit loaded... with a lot of stuff ego can hijack. Technically, you can call the Absolute or Infinite Being whatever you want. And no concept/pointer will fully work, just point.

And the God-pointer points tend to be a bit overloaded with that which actually prevents true realization: Blowing up the ego & grandiosity which actually belongs to Infinite Being, not an ego/separate-self.

 

Selling good mixer-pointers by the River

 

 

[Water by the River]

30 minutes ago, bambi said:

Thanks for this post, this is my understanding of it all too. What and where is the role in pyschedelics along the journey then?

To give a preview on these facets of True Being. To know these states are real.

• Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left),
• Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and
• Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined.
• Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being.
• Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities)
• Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations".

Without psychedelics, one needs a looong time of this here:

• That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics.

And with psychedelics, one still needs to do this until the very end. Else the whole elephant won't show itself. But at least one knows then that there is an elephant.

 

Psychedelic Pro:

• Prooves that nondual states are not mere fantasy, and gives nice awakened states on which to cross-check if ones meditation-path is moving one there.
• And of course explore the Multiverse with its myriad of Realms and Beings, from Angels and Demons to ET&Aliens. And understand the mechanisms of manifestation/appearance (Chris Bache, Stan Grof, Rick Strassmann) for example).

Psychedelic Contra:

Doesn't deliver transcending ones personality/ego fully. This here: "That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics."

So we get God-realized Egos. Not stable realization. A mighty trap. Somebody ought to make a video including that trap also. 

 

Committing blasphemy against the holy Liturgy of the church of god-realize-your-ego and then getting drowned in the River by an Infinity of Gods. 

Edited June 2 by Water by the River

[Leo Gura]

@Water by the River You do not understand what Consciousness or God is. You have a bunch of human spiritual constructions running you.

In this respect you are very arrogant, even though you love to play humble and wise.

You are playing games on this forum around this whole topic.

Whatever enlightenment you think you have, it is not a profound understanding of God. What you have is a gross reduction. And you infect others with these ideas.

God dreams entire worlds, and you have no understanding of how this is accomplished. And because of that you invent your reductions. This makes your life much easier because you don't actually take on the enormous burden of comprehending God.

Enlightenment is a human dream. When you realize that, then you can begin understanding God.

Edited June 2 by Leo Gura

[strika]

@Water by the River you're spot on bro

[Water by the River]

 

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

God dreams entire worlds, and you have no understanding of how this is accomplished. And because of that you invent your reductions. This makes your life much easier because you don't actually take on the enormous burden of comprehending God.

Then I guess the only thing that remains is to wish you fun exploring the mechanisms of manifestation while diving even deeper into the illusion, while being an illusion. Bon voyage! Watch out for the crocodiles 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment is a low human construction.

Consider that maybe you can not judge that, because, um, ehem, well, you know ...   ... .... 

The aspect that you don't have access to nondual awakened states sobre tells about the still remaining filters/lenses, of, um, Leo.

Do you really need more crocodiles to get "Enlightenment is a low ..." bitten out of your separate-self mindstream?

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

God dreams entire worlds, and you have no understanding of how this is accomplished. And because of that you invent your reductions. This makes your life much easier because you don't actually take on the enormous burden of comprehending God.

The trap you are falling into is precisely described in Wilbers Religion of the Future, getting lost in the fascination of the higher subtle realms and how manifestation works. There is nothing new with it. Just read Chris Bache "LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven", or Stan Grof "The Cosmic Game: Explorations of the Frontiers of Human Consciousness". There are endless accounts, both contemporary and historical.

 

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In this respect you are very arrogant, even though you love to play humble and wise.

Thank you for the second part, you are also doing quite well in this field since lately, Chapeau! .And the first part is a compliment that I can not avoid giving back since you are also very firm in your perspective. 

 

33 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Committing blasphemy against the holy Liturgy of the church of god-realize-your-ego and then getting drowned in the River by an Infinity of Gods. 

 

 

[bambi]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River You do not understand what Consciousness or God is. You have a bunch of human spiritual constructions running you.

In this respect you are very arrogant, even though you love to play humble and wise.

You are playing games on this forum around this whole topic.

Whatever enlightenment you think you have, it is not a profound understanding of God. What you have is a gross reduction. And you infect others with these ideas.

God dreams entire worlds, and you have no understanding of how this is accomplished. And because of that you invent your reductions. This makes your life much easier because you don't actually take on the enormous burden of comprehending God.

Enlightenment is a human dream. When you realize that, then you can begin understanding God.

I think there is a communication issue. Have you seen the following map from David Hawkins (I know I keep peddling it), but specifically the left hand colunm,  I am trying to reconcile everyones perspectives using his work. He say 1000 is the highest you can embody on the human plane, but he say it goes upto infinity, this kind of corroborates what you say

[Davino]

45 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

I preferred Harakiri. Which had paradoxically quite similiar results. Even pretty stable results.

I respect your Harakiri that's why I don't go talking about it as if I knew what it is.

46 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

That move enabled also to stay a bit more to the humble side. A bit. Since the other side of the spectrum is a bit overloaded with Godrealized egos, so its not really comfy & spacy there.

Talking about being humble or egoic on the conversation about what God is... sigh

I started crying contemplating about God a few moments ago.

50 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Show me anything that is not included in Infinite Being. Then I will allow myself to show you the mixer.

The point is you will not cry on the floor saying: Oh Infinite Being! Oh no Self! Oh Consciousness!

You will say: OH MY FUCKING GOD

Because that's what it is, and you may have an extraordinary baseline consciousness or may have unveiled the egoic structure; congratulation! But if you get seriously conscious, God will appear in front of your eyes and there's no way around it.

54 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Lets call it Infinite Being.

God is Infinite Being

But Infinite Being is not all God is

In the same way a siberian husky is a type of Dog and Dog is not only siberian huskies.

You just need a shit tone of consciousness, maybe your methodology doesn't allow such peaks. If it did you would be talking about God.

You prefer Harakiri? Enjoy it, I'll explore it too but I'm not gonna talk as if I knew what Harakiri is like as you do with God, because it's clear you don't know what God is nor what it entails. I'm still crude in God-Realization, but I have a better idea than you, that for sure.