Permenant cessation of ego structure

[What Am I]

11 hours ago, Water by the River said:

The shutting off is emphasized in Theravada-approaches, leading to the Jhanas and cessation. Cessation is not the goal nor the highest state in all later developed Mahayana systems. The goal their is nondual Enlightenment sobre, while thoughts and the world arise in Infinite Being.

I've heard something similar. Looking at it through the same kind of lense, how would you classify Zen and Vajrayana?

Edited May 30 by What Am I

[Leo Gura]

On 5/29/2024 at 8:17 AM, Nemra said:

Have you found someone else who seems to understand that?

Just curious.

It's hard to say who understands what.

[Oppositionless]

A spiral dynamics stage putple caveman would be enlightened if ego loss was the key to awakening

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Oppositionless said:

A spiral dynamics stage putple caveman would be enlightened if ego loss was the key to awakening

A Purple caveman can be enlightened or awake.

Spiral level is independent of enlightenment or awakening.

[Water by the River]

On 30.5.2024 at 9:38 PM, What Am I said:

I've heard something similar. Looking at it through the same kind of lense, how would you classify Zen and Vajrayana?

 

Zen is a form of Mahayana Buddhism. Vajrayana is Tantric Buddhism, which has Mahayana at its base.

• Mahayana = Nondual Enlightenment to Infinite Impersonal Being WHILE appearances/the world occurs as summum bonum. Philosophical base is middle way/Nagarjuna, or Infinite Being can never be hinted at as object of any kind.
• Hinayana (earliest buddhism):
  • Cessation as goal, mainly via the concentrative Jhanas. Nirvikalpa. Blank out. Nothingness. But coming out of it, not necessarily being aware that the same Nothingness is also the substance/Infinite Reality of everything else. That would be the Nondual Enlightenment of Mahayana.
  • Hinayana doesn't exist anymore, but Theravada as successor-form. Theravada doesn't evolve from Mahayana but from Hinayana. For example, forms of Thai Buddhism, forest tradition, Ingram, Frank Yang, Rob Burbea and so on are basically Theravada-based or influenced. 
  • Although nowadays Theravada also can have Nondual Enlightenment as goal, and not just cessation/Jhanas (as a general statement, especially with the latter persons mentioned. Ingram has a nice chapter on map-failure in his "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha". In Zen/Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen I guess the map wouldn't have failed so drastically, and that is why he added meditation techniques from there also. Same with Frank Yang and Rob Burbea. 

The equation of cessation=Enlightenment got updated in later Buddhism pretty fast. The same Nothingness experienced in cessation (as, um, NOTHING-ness) can also be experienced WHILE appearances arise, that is (true) Nondual Enlightenment (Nothing-ness+Something) when it is impersonal Infinite Being with no other and not just merging in nondual Unity of a still-alive-though-thinned out separate self).

Early Hinayana: Cessation as goal. Theravada is a continuation of Hinayana, although Enlightenment=cessation(s) got updated to true Nondual Enlightenment in Theravada also, at least in some teachers/lines. But it has a certain "hangover" of valueing cessations a lot, which is ok, because if that is done often enough the Nondual Enlightenment can and does open up. Cessations = Enlightenment would be a prime form of Leos Buddhist Reductionsim.

https://www.shambhala.com/historical-introduction-excerpt-integral-buddhism/

And there is not just "one" Buddhism. There exist so many schools, with development over millenia. And btw. Jainism is so similiar to Buddhism that there are doubts that the historical Buddha even existed (because Buddhas story is pretty much exactly the same as the story of the founder of Jainism Vardhamana Mahavira, see below in blue) or if it is just a founding myth. A framework.

@Leo Gura: One of your favourite Buddhism-extremist-reductionist afficionados just killed the Buddha. And requests to be promoted to part-time Buddhist-Iconoclast. And maybe Nondual-Enlightement-Reductionist. But no longer Buddhist reductionist, because, you know, got kicked out of the club for killing the Buddha . And he even delivered some juicy books with a lot of aliens&faries&angels&demons inside as atonement. Oh my, I hope you get my humor 

 

For killing the Buddha softly, see for example "Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana":

"It is customary to assume that the Buddha was a historical

character (even iconoclasts like Trevor Ling do not question his

historicity) but parallels with non-Buddhist systems raise a suspicion

that this may not be so. It is no longer believed that there was an

ancient Greek poet called Homer who composed the Iliad and

Odyssey. These “Homeric” epics are now understood to be compiled

and refined from the compositions of many individual storytellers.

Might not the teachings of “the Buddha” be analogous? Could the

teachings also have been an age-old body of wisdom, analogously

compiled, refined and imputed to a single, fictitious author? These

teachings would have been transmitted orally but eventually, when

writing systems arrived, transcribed as suttas. The earliest Buddhist

art does not depict the Buddha as a person, but merely in symbolic

form. In these so-called “aniconic” images, he may be shown as a

parasol, an empty throne, pillar of fire or a pair of footprints. Could

this be an acknowledgment that “the Buddha” was not a person in

the normal meaning of the word?

There is a strange feature of the Buddha’s biography which rarely

receives comment and that is its similarity to the life of Vardhaman.

Also known as Mahāvira (literally, “great man”), Vardhaman was son

of a king, born with the 32 major and minor signs of his body. His

father, the king, consulted wise men who foretold that he was

destined to become a world-ruling emperor or a great spiritual

leader. The wise men advise the king that to prevent him becoming a

great sage, he must keep his son distracted with amusements. This

the king does until, as an adult, Vardhaman escapes from the

palace, meditates in the forest and achieves enlightenment. He

teaches a non-Vedic path which, he says, is called Jainism.

Anyone who knows the life of the Buddha will recognize all this

as the same story. Even so, I have left out a lot of parallels such as

identical personal names of characters in the biographies. Buddhism

and Jainism also share many of the same …

 

Killing the Buddha by the River softly while selling water 

Edited June 1 by Water by the River

[What Am I]

@Water by the River Nice, thanks for the explanation.

It's interesting how early Buddhism could be so shortsighted to have the sole goal of nirvikalpa samadhi. Many of the progenitors seem to be great beings capable of some amazing stuff. You'd think they'd notice that the spiritual mechanism carries forward into a continuous infusion into their everyday life.

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

And there is not just "one" Buddhism. There exist so many schools, with development over millenia. And btw. Jainism is so similiar to Buddhism that there are doubts that the historical Buddha even existed (because Buddhas story is pretty much exactly the same as the story of the founder of Jainism Vardhamana Mahavira, see below in blue) or if it is just a founding myth. A framework.

This seems to be the case with many origin stories across cultures throughout history. It's like the same myths get recycled indefinitely. It makes you wonder how it all started.

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

"Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana"

I need to check this out. Considering how expansive Vajrayana is into all kinds of realms, it wouldn't be surprising to find out its teachings were aided by some kind of entheogen.

Edited June 1 by What Am I

[bambi]

I dont know why people reject David Hawkins maps and works, they pretty much accurately encapsulate, integrate and explain the totality of spirituality and theology. It's like theyre so accurate and simple people prefer the story and complexity of ignoring them. Hawkins has the Void/Cessation/Nibanna at 800/1000 and an important purfiication step on the way to higher levels of enlightenment. His model intergates and explains literally every single spriitual disagreement, ambiguity and misunderstanding. Including non-duality, enlightenment, different levels and stages of non-duality and enlightenment, pitfalls, misunderstandings etc etc

 

 

Edited June 1 by bambi

[Javfly33]

32 minutes ago, bambi said:

I dont know why people reject David Hawkins maps and works, they pretty much accurately encapsulate, integrate and explain the totality of spirituality and theology. It's like theyre so accurate and simple people prefer the story and complexity of ignoring them. Hawkins has the Void/Cessation/Nibanna at 800/1000 and an important purfiication step on the way to higher levels of enlightenment. His model intergates and explains literally every single spriitual disagreement, ambiguity and misunderstanding. Including non-duality, enlightenment, different levels and stages of non-duality and enlightenment, pitfalls, misunderstandings etc etc

 

 

I think is a good map but IS quite the leap of faith to assume Mr David Hawkins have seen It all.

Because...you know, to make a map of the full spectrum of consciousness you would have to explore the full spectrum of consciousness...was Hawkins a Yogui meditating for 3 lifetimes in a cave? I dont think so 

[What Am I]

38 minutes ago, bambi said:

I dont know why people reject David Hawkins maps and works, they pretty much accurately encapsulate, integrate and explain the totality of spirituality and theology.

I like David Hawkins quite a bit. I think his spiritual advancement is extremely high, and as you say, his maps seem to be an accurate reflection of the reality.

I guess the reason I never dove more into his material is because he wasn't big on giving pointers on how to reach those rarefied levels. The most I've seen from him regarding that is the paragraph below from Power vs. Force. I've always leaned more towards someone like Adyashanti for that reason. But perhaps I'm falling into the trap of complexity that you mentioned.

"People wonder, “How does one reach this state of awareness,” but few follow the steps because they are so simple. First, the desire to reach that state was intense. Then began the discipline to act with constant and universal forgiveness and gentleness, without exception. One has to be compassionate towards everything, including one’s own self and thoughts. Next came a willingness to hold desires in abeyance and surrender personal will at every moment. As each thought, feeling, desire, or deed was surrendered to God, the mind became progressively silent. At first, it released whole stories and paragraphs, then ideas and concepts. As one lets go of wanting to own these thoughts, they no longer reach such elaboration and begin to fragment while only half formed. Finally, it was possible to turn over the energy behind thought itself before it even became thought."

Edited June 1 by What Am I

[bambi]

3 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I think is a good map but IS quite the leap of faith to assume Mr David Hawkins have seen It all.

Because...you know, to make a map of the full spectrum of consciousness you would have to explore the full spectrum of consciousness...was Hawkins a Yogui meditating for 3 lifetimes in a cave? I dont think so 

Hmm actually one onyl has to trasncend all of the levels. Each level or dimension is infinite within itself. Transcending all levels to full enlightenment would suggest a total perspective or absolute perspective on all of this. Hawkins wont be able to deliniate every instance or behaviour based on shame for example, he just needs to demarcate it, its a heuristic

Is there anything specific you disagree with?

[bambi]

1 minute ago, What Am I said:

I like David Hawkins quite a bit. I think his spiritual advancement is extremely high, and as you say, his maps seem to be an accurate reflection of the reality.

I guess the reason I never dove more into his material is because he wasn't big on giving pointers on how to reach those rarefied levels. The most I've seen from him regarding that is the paragraph below from Power vs. Force. I've always leaned more towards someone like Adyashanti for that reason. But perhaps I'm falling into the trap of complexity that you mentioned.

"People wonder, “How does one reach this state of awareness,” but few follow the steps because they are so simple. First, the desire to reach that state was intense. Then began the discipline to act with constant and universal forgiveness and gentleness, without exception. One has to be compassionate towards everything, including one’s own self and thoughts. Next came a willingness to hold desires in abeyance and surrender personal will at every moment. As each thought, feeling, desire, or deed was surrendered to God, the mind became progressively silent. At first, it released whole stories and paragraphs, then ideas and concepts. As one lets go of wanting to own these thoughts, they no longer reach such elaboration and begin to fragment while only half formed. Finally, it was possible to turn over the energy behind thought itself before it even became thought."

Hmm Ive read all his work and hes pretty clear to me, you surrender the totality of ego to the greater field of Awareness, you do this momenarily throughout the day. The spiritual will and commitment and intention must be there to do this. It corroborates all other spiritual teachers actually

IS that a hawkins qoute?

[What Am I]

I agree, when stated plainly, that seems to be all there is to it. Some people like myself may be more dense though, and need it repeated using different wording from different angles before it sinks in.

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

IS that a hawkins qoute?

Yeah, it's from Power vs. Force near the beginning.

[bambi]

10 minutes ago, What Am I said:

I agree, when stated plainly, that seems to be all there is to it. Some people like myself may be more dense though, and need it repeated using different wording from different angles before it sinks in.

Yeah, it's from Power vs. Force near the beginning.

Got you. Power of letting go, the eye of the eye, and trasncending the levels of conciousness are all great works too.

I think the genuine intention to surrender your personal ego and further your personal mind must be in place, as you go higher there is less pressure or percieved force, there is nothing telling you to do anything, the final surrenders must be done out of love to your-Self.

"Until they are willing; a thousand Buddhas will not help them" 

I have his video lectures and am watching them. I would be open to doing watching groups/study groups on Discord if others where interesting in watching and discussing

 

Edited June 1 by bambi

[What Am I]

2 minutes ago, bambi said:

Got you. Power of letting go, the eye of the eye, and trasncending the levels of conciousness are all great works too.

Thanks, I'll check these out along with some YouTube videos.

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

I think the genuine intention to surrender your personal ego and further your personal mind must be in place, as you go higher there is less pressure or percieved force, there is nothing telling you to do anything, the final surrenders must be done out of love to your-Self.

Very cool, reminds me of another great quote from Power vs. Force.

"But, in fact, in this final apocalypse of the self, the dissolution of the sole remaining duality of existence versus nonexistence—identity itself—dissolves in Universal Divinity, and no individual consciousness is left to choose. The last step, then, is taken by God."

[Yimpa]

11 minutes ago, bambi said:

I have his video lectures and am watching them. I would be open to doing watching groups/study groups on Discord if others where interesting in watching and discussing

No can do sir

Quote

What’s NOT Allowed:

• Recruiting members for chat-groups outside of this forum, including Skype, Discord, chatrooms, etc.

 

[bambi]

4 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

No can do sir

 

Ah thats a shame, study groups would be fun, I watch 1-2 hrs several times a week, would be fun to do it with others and share our thoughts feelings and perspectives. But respect the rules

[Yimpa]

Just now, bambi said:

Ah thats a shame, study groups would be fun, I watch 1-2 hrs several times a week, would be fun to do it with others and share our thoughts feelings and perspectives. 

You can make that happen 

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, bambi said:

Hmm actually one onyl has to trasncend all of the levels. Each level or dimension is infinite within itself. Transcending all levels to full enlightenment would suggest a total perspective or absolute perspective on all of this. Hawkins wont be able to deliniate every instance or behaviour based on shame for example, he just needs to demarcate it, its a heuristic

Is there anything specific you disagree with?

makes sense to me that shame is in the lowest vibrations. 

Is a good map for people starting

However , the levels from 540 to 1000 seem arbitrary. Has Hawking really have explored that kind of amplitude in consciousness? 

[bambi]

11 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

makes sense to me that shame is in the lowest vibrations. 

Is a good map for people starting

However , the levels from 540 to 1000 seem arbitrary. Has Hawking really have explored that kind of amplitude in consciousness? 

Actually I find the higher mapping to be most useful. And they explain all of the arguments within eastern traditions and sects in Buddhism. The higher levels explain how non-duality is not full Enlightenment for example, which even integrates Leos work. Hawkins just does it in a much more sophisticated comprehensive manner. All the paradoxes and stages like Being vs Non Being, and Existence vs Non Existence, Samsara vs Nirvana, are all on his model an explained at various levels.

Im yet to find a flaw in it. OF course there are more emotions then what he lists, and more complexity could be added. But to me it seems the best map to date

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, bambi said:

Ah thats a shame, study groups would be fun, I watch 1-2 hrs several times a week, would be fun to do it with others and share our thoughts feelings and perspectives. But respect the rules

You can do that here! Just start a thread. It is not good to fragment this already small community into private subcommunuties.