Permenant cessation of ego structure

[What Am I]

Don't you guys think you may be considering this in too simplistic and binary a way? I mean no offense, but it's similar to posts on Reddit where someone asks if an ego death on shrooms will last forever to the degree where you live the rest of your life without an ego, and then you'd just sit there ineffectively, not knowing if you're the person or the chair. I believe (from research and direct experience) authentic spiritual transformation would ultimately enhance human life, not morph it into something impractical and ridiculous. I think it's worth considering the subtleties here, and recognizing answers won't be so obvious or even fit within your current logical framework.

I've found this video of Adyashanti and Loch Kelly helpful in providing a description of the awakened everyday state (not just peak experiences on a meditation mat). This would be closer to what it actually means to live in an egoless state.

 

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Osaid said:

Yes.

They can obviously become a massive red herring.

If someone is very stubborn on the matter, for example they refuse to self-inquire into their existence or even look into the possibility, then I think it can help "open their mind." 

But it can also make someone mentally ungrounded and make them latch onto all sorts of lofty metaphysical ideas. Humans already have all sorts of crazy ideas just from the baseline state.

I would definitely not use it for "chasing truth" or any such endeavor. I think it's better to use it to spark curiosity instead of landing on lofty metaphysical conclusions, because the mind sticks to those like glue. But it's not like it's mandatory or anything, truth isn't conditional.

Thanks, I agree with your definition, although am not there yet

Thanks for your share, psychedelics etc are interesting, they are so intense and convincing, they seem like a tool that could perhaps be used to help point someone on the path of permenant ego-dissolution, or maybe jsut a pure red herring, they do feel like they could be conducive though

[bambi]

2 minutes ago, James123 said:

He is not. As you see. 

Moreover, i can not be enlightened, when i drops enlightenment happens. There is no less or full enlightenment, enlightenment is enlightenment. You are maybe confused with awakening? 

Please tell me a teacher or video who says that ego leaves permanently?

 

Dr david hawkins? He wrote tons of books and videos on ego and enlightenment

[bambi]

4 minutes ago, James123 said:

He is not. As you see. 

Moreover, i can not be enlightened, when i drops enlightenment happens. There is no less or full enlightenment, enlightenment is enlightenment. You are maybe confused with awakening? 

Please tell me a teacher or video who says that ego leaves permanently?

 

Your beginning to confuse me, he doesnt mention ego in this video, hes simply pointing out that reality is reality before and after enlightenment...

 

[bambi]

4 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Don't you guys think you may be considering this in too simplistic and binary a way? I mean no offense, but it's similar to posts on Reddit where someone asks if an ego death on shrooms will last forever to the degree where you live the rest of your life without an ego, and then you'd just sit there ineffectively, not knowing if you're the person or the chair. I believe (from research and direct experience) authentic spiritual transformation would ultimately enhance human life, not morph it into something impractical and ridiculous. I think it's worth considering the subtleties here, and recognizing answers won't be so obvious or even fit within your current logical framework.

I've found this video of Adyashanti and Loch Kelly helpful in providing a description of the awakened everyday state (not just peak experiences on a meditation mat). This would be closer to what it actually means to live in an egoless state.

 

(this thread has completely been derailed by armchair philosophy as usual on these forums, so cancerous)

I mentioned early in one of my posts that its not possible for an ego-self to imagine life without the ego, as the attribute all of the entities survival to the ego. But people claim that this is a delusion, and that when the ego-self is dissolved, Self is seen to be the source of your life, and takes complete control over your survival in a way they say is how to communicate.

So either theyre lieing, and Leo is lieing in his 2019 video. Or it is possible to give your ego-self completely to Self/God and still stay alive physically

[James123]

Just now, bambi said:

Dr david hawkins? He wrote tons of books and videos on ego and enlightenment

Let me put in this way,

firstly, i did dozens of psychedelics and high dosages believe me. Psychedelics are temporary. 

Secondly, i did retreats darkness and silence for months, which is when enlightenment recognition happened.

Thirdly, after enlightenment ego doesn't leave, but you do not pay attention to mind, chatting. Perception does not change, breathing does not change, nothing changes, but mind is quite. Which is pretty much the end of existence. However, if i put my hand on the fire, it will burn and i will take away my hand. 

[Water by the River]

4 minutes ago, James123 said:

Please tell me a teacher or video who says that ego leaves permanently?

Paul Atreides of course. Seems he followed your advice with the fire & hand. 

And now lets get serious:

 

James my friend, if you wouldn't have written that wise statement in your signature, someone really would have needed to state such wise words.

Selling Gom Jabbars & burning hand tests overflowing cups by the River

[bambi]

1 minute ago, James123 said:

Let me put in this way,

firstly, i did dozens of psychedelics and high dosages believe me. Psychedelics are temporary. 

Secondly, i did retreats darkness and silence for months, which is when enlightenment recognition happened.

Thirdly, after enlightenment ego doesn't leave, but you do not pay attention to mind, chatting. Perception does not change, breathing does not change, nothing changes, but mind is quite. Which is pretty much the end of existence. However, if i put my hand on the fire, it will burn and i will take away my hand. 

Im sorry but you are just adding deep confusion to this thread. Ego is NOT sensory experience, no one is claiming that. You are just derailing this thread for no reason lol.

Weve all done dozens of psychedelics, silent retreats and had enlightenment experiences, pretty much everyone on these forums I assume, but that is not the original quesiton or intent of this post

[James123]

@bambi @Water by the River what is the ego do you think guys? İf you don't know what the ego is you never know the answer. 

[What Am I]

1 minute ago, bambi said:

(this thread has completely been derailed by armchair philosophy as usual on these forums, so cancerous)

lol true enough

2 minutes ago, bambi said:

I mentioned early in one of my posts that its not possible for an ego-self to imagine life without the ego, as the attribute all of the entities survival to the ego. But people claim that this is a delusion, and that when the ego-self is dissolved, Self is seen to be the source of your life, and takes complete control over your survival in a way they say is how to communicate.

Right, I'd generally agree that this is how it works. And that's what's being described in the video I posted above, but it involves subtle concepts describing the literal sensation of what it feels like. It's definitely the animal stepping out of the way for God to get in.

Here's another good one.

 

5 minutes ago, bambi said:

So either theyre lieing, and Leo is lieing in his 2019 video. Or it is possible to give your ego-self completely to Self/God and still stay alive physically

I leave the door open that Leo may have a current understanding that transcends what I'm saying here.

[Yimpa]

16 minutes ago, Osaid said:

I think it's better to use it to spark curiosity instead of landing on lofty metaphysical conclusions, because the mind sticks to those like glue.

Like this, lol

 

[bambi]

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

@bambi @Water by the River what is the ego do you think guys? İf you don't know what the ego is you never know the answer. 

The ego is the sum total psychological and unconcious resistance patterns/structures we have all been accruing and projecting onto reality since a childhood. Its our dissociated sense of imaginary seperated self. It disconnects us from reality and from the Self/God/Reality/Life.

You are deraling my thread drastically for no reason, very unkind 

Edited May 26 by bambi

[James123]

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

The ego is the collective psychological and concious resistance patterns/structures youve bee accruing and projecting onto reality since a childhood. Its your dissociated sense of imaginary seperated self

You are deraling my thread drastically for no reason, very unkind 

İf you haven't realize that ego is the universe, you will not realize or satisfy with any answer  (whatever answer you get).

İ am very sorry, if you think that i drill your tread or joke around.

Enlightenment is simply and permanently quites the mind, no more mind chatting. That's it. 

Peace! Much love! 

Edited May 26 by James123

[Water by the River]

9 minutes ago, James123 said:

what is the ego do you think guys?

My best guess would be the overflowing cup.

Do I have to put my hand on the fire, or does the answer to the Koan please the Roshi?

 

Selling plenty of tea by the River

[Osaid]

17 minutes ago, bambi said:

permenant ego-dissolution

Practically, this doesn't seem to ever happen from psychedelics. What is left over are memories, desires, longings, and speculations. But nothing that really "lasts."

I see it very simply. The psychedelic is a chemical which "brute forces" itself in such a way that the brain does not have the capacity or intelligence to form an ego anymore. Once that chemical wears off, the ego is back, but it is thus never understood what the ego actually is, and thus "ego" is never seen through totally. In order to figure out what ego is, you must be able to clearly perceive it and sit with it first. Alcohol makes you happy, but it is temporary because substances are temporary, and so there is always a distinct "come down." There is no understanding of how to be happy in the "baseline" state, the alcohol stunts your intelligence because your intelligence makes you unhappy in the baseline state. Similarly, psychedelics stunt your intelligence so that you cannot form a proper ego anymore, and that creates a temporary "clarity", but that substance-induced state is often misconstrued as some sort of higher and more "truthful" state which should then be chased after. Similar to how someone might look at being drunk as a "happier" state, but what is not seen is that the happiness and unhappiness is simply your intellect malfunctioning, and the alcohol manipulates that.

It's like the analogy of the rope and the snake. Enlightenment is seeing a rope as a rope, not a snake. Psychedelics are like transforming or removing the rope entirely, so that it is not perceived as it normally is. Then when you come back to the baseline you're like "oh shit the snake is back!"

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or maybe jsut a pure red herring, they do feel like they could be conducive though

I can see how it could be beneficial. But really the only benefit I personally see is the sense of open-mindedness, and the curiosity it creates. The real problem is when those states are put on a pedestal, or the psychedelics are used as some sort of clutch. If you create some kind of ideology or conclusion that relates to those states, that immediately creates a hierarchy now which turns the psychedelic state into some kind of arbiter of truth.

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, Osaid said:

But really the only benefit I personally see is the sense of open-mindedness, and the curiosity it creates. The real problem is when those states are put on a pedestal, or the psychedelics are used as some sort of clutch. If you create some kind of ideology or conclusion that relates to those states, that immediately creates a hierarchy now which turns the psychedelic state into some kind of arbiter of truth.

Creating a religion out of psychedelics is indeed a trap. 

[What Am I]

@bambi to get focus back to your original question, I very strongly maintain that if psychedelics could assist in permanent spiritual change, it'd be through the mechanism of vivifying your energetic system. It's a similar concept to kriya yoga, which as I understand it has the same goal of activating this system to initiate and accelerate the awakening process. The lesser psychedelics do this to varying degrees, but 5meo and malt do it profoundly. LSD does it significantly as well, but it comes with an excessively long trip and lots of subconscious distractions.

This book really helped me get a better understanding of kundalini, along with many 5meo experiences. To ignore the phenomenon would be a large mistake in my opinion. It'd be like trying to drive a car with a dog turd in the engine compartment.

https://www.amazon.com/Kundalini-Exposed-Disclosing-Kundalini-Awakening/dp/B0B6KRCPJB/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

1 hour ago, bambi said:

Dr david hawkins? He wrote tons of books and videos on ego and enlightenment

Since you mentioned David Hawkins, I figure I'd point out that he clearly describes the involvement of kundalini and energy in his transformational process.

From Power Vs. Force:
"The overall condition of the nervous system improved slowly, and then another phenomenon commenced. There was a sweet, delicious band of energy continuously flowing up the spine and into the brain where it created an intense sensation of continuous pleasure. Everything in life happened by synchronicity, evolving in perfect harmony; the miraculous was commonplace. The origin of what the world would call miracles was the Presence, not the personal self. What remained of the personal “me” was only a witness to these phenomena. The greater “I,” deeper than my former self or thoughts, determined all that happened."

Edited May 26 by What Am I

[Water by the River]

@Osaid good points.

I find the following thought experiment interesting: 

• Imagine that all it would need for Enlightenment (realization of True Infinite Being instead of being a separate-self/human) would be taking psychedelics. 
• Truly realizing Infinite Being means understanding that each and any identity and thought is just an object. No character/ego-element not made from subject into object arising in Infinite Being in real time.
• If psychedelics don't deliver that (which they apparently don't do, has been tested many times), and yet would cause a permanent blissful nondual state, that would mean nothing else that ego and its normal occupations with I/me/mine and all its endless needs Maslows pyramid up and down, not to talk about being soooo special (a brief look at current state of the world suffices) would at least partly survive untranscended.
• And then we would have permanently blissful non-suffering (and hence NON-CHANGING) super-egos running around, established in blissful nonduality, doing its remaining turbo-egoic-thing. . Not for the faint of hearted...

So, there is and will remain an entrance price for staying in blissfull boundless impersonal nonduality: The transcendence or seeing through each and any separate-self I-feeling and I-thought in real time. The death of the little self, understanding it never existed, and only Infinite Being IS and apparently played the game of being something separate.

 

And what would a Roshi say to Water by the Rivers telling his little pet theory and thought experiments: Empty your cup and back on the pillow!

 

And he would be right. Oh well...

 

Singing "If I can Dream..."  by the River

 

 

[Osaid]

35 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

And then we would have permanently blissful non-suffering (and hence NON-CHANGING) super-egos running around, established in blissful nonduality, doing its remaining turbo-egoic-thing. . Not for the faint of hearted...

Oh damn, true and ironic. Like someone in a drug-induced psychosis who thinks they're invincible since they can't feel physical pain. 

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So, there is and will remain an entrance price for staying in blissfull boundless impersonal nonduality: The transcendence or seeing through each and any separate-self I-feeling and I-thought in real time. The death of the little self, understanding it never existed, and only Infinite Being IS and apparently played the game of being something separate.

Seems like reality likes to keep balance.

Edited May 26 by Osaid

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, bambi said:

Do you not think dissolving the ego permentantly is the highest goal for the spiritual seeker to live a joyous and free life? Thats the impression I took from that video, which aligns with most other spiritual teachings. How have your veiws changed? Do you have a follow up video I could watch ?

What you guys should understand about me is that I have very different priorities than most spiritual people.

I do not care about ego, or maximizing a joyous life, or any other thing that spiritual people care about.

I care about pure consciousness and understanding. So that's my bias and focus.

Frankly, I don't know what will create the most joyous life because it never even occured to me to care.

But I am fine with you having your own spiritual priorities.

Ego has many degrees to it and could be defined in various ways. You have a sense of human self that Consciousness is imagining. This goes so deep that it even includes your memories of your own name. If your sense of self was wiped out deeply enough, you could not even remember your own name or that you were born from a mother. Consciousness could even replace your sense of self with a totally different sense of self. For example, you could adopt the Leo sense of self. Your sense of self is a very complex and sophisticated thing.

I suggest that you stop taking the word "ego" or "self" for granted and actually investigate in your experience what "ego" refers to for you. For example, when we say that Trump has a big ego, what exactly does that mean? What is the difference between a big ego and a tiny ego?

Generally speaking, reducing ego should increases joy. So that's a simple rule you can follow. 

In general, the human self is quite a bottleneck on your Mind. You want to move out of the human self into identifying with all of Consciousness.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura