What Leo said on light meditation

[Fredodoow]

I would just like to push back on something I heard Leo say more and more as of late. It goes along the lines of "Meditation should be done seriously. Don't half ass it. If you're gonna do it, go all in. No point in just meditating a few minutes every day, you will just waste your time". 

This does not resonate with my personnal experience, and it goes in direct contradiction with something the great zen master Shizen Young said : there is a world of difference, a WORLD of difference, between 10 minutes of meditation a day and zero minutes of meditation a day".

Now, I'm not saying that you can get enlightened, or get any of the crazy stuff on a few minutes a day, but if it does help you process emotions, sleep better, think more clearly, discipline your mind, even just a bit, isn't that huge ?

This bugs me, because when I was starting out working out, I heard some people say stuff about running like "if you're not gonna do at least 45 minutes, it's useless". And I can tell you that's completely wrong for pretty much the same reasons. 

Edited May 25, 2024 by Fredodoow

[r0ckyreed]

Going to the gym for a few minutes everyday is better than nothing but won’t get you a six pack.

Meditating for a few minutes everyday is better than nothing but won’t get you enlightened.

[Fredodoow]

@r0ckyreed Well of course that's what you're gonna get from Rocky.

[Yimpa]

It’s relative. For someone with no meditation experience, 30 seconds can be hard work, but important for kickstarting them to do it. This is not a competition.

[r0ckyreed]

2 hours ago, Fredodoow said:

@r0ckyreed Well of course that's what you're gonna get from Rocky.

Contemplate what I wrote. If the goal is to wake up, light meditation is a waste of time. If you want to be comfortable in the dream, then light meditation is fine.

Enlightenment doesn’t happen on accident despite what others have told you.

Edited May 25, 2024 by r0ckyreed

[r0ckyreed]

By the way, it is not about how long you are meditating. It is about how deep you can go into this moment right now. Not tomorrow’s practice on a cushion. I mean right freakin now. This is the meditation.

[Leo Gura]

The issue that after you experience psychedelic levels of consciousness, nothing less will satify you.

Most people who meditate have no idea of what consciousness is possible, so they placate themselves with their piddly results in order to rationalize their time investment. It's hard to admit to yourself that all your years of meditation has gotten you virtually nowhere.

That's not gonna be the case for everyone, but the majority.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Yali]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's hard to admit to yourself that all your years of meditation has gotten you virtually nowhere.

When you say that meditation is virtually useless, do you mean in terms of reaching the highest states of consciousness or generally speaking? @Leo Gura

Like one can still benefit greatly from having an hour per day meditation practice even though it will never bring them to highest states of consciousness?

Edited May 26, 2024 by Yali

[Javfly33]

9 hours ago, Fredodoow said:

I would just like to push back on something I heard Leo say more and more as of late. It goes along the lines of "Meditation should be done seriously. Don't half ass it. If you're gonna do it, go all in. No point in just meditating a few minutes every day, you will just waste your time". 

This does not resonate with my personnal experience, and it goes in direct contradiction with something the great zen master Shizen Young said : there is a world of difference, a WORLD of difference, between 10 minutes of meditation a day and zero minutes of meditation a day".

Now, I'm not saying that you can get enlightened, or get any of the crazy stuff on a few minutes a day, but if it does help you process emotions, sleep better, think more clearly, discipline your mind, even just a bit, isn't that huge ?

This bugs me, because when I was starting out working out, I heard some people say stuff about running like "if you're not gonna do at least 45 minutes, it's useless". And I can tell you that's completely wrong for pretty much the same reasons. 

Personally is not about time. 

Is about whatever time you are doing you are doing it absolutely focused and intensely.

The reality is in today's world most people have an uneasiness in their body that they can´t just sit still for 15 minutes properly.

Most people will say yes i can, but the insides theres no really stillness and intensity. There is a feeling of wanting to be somewhere else, of the body not being completely let go of. 

IMO for meditation to be really succesful, you have to be able to sit and instantly feel pleasure, absolute stillness, like your body is absolutely dead, ideally even losing the feeling of a body. You should be merging with the floor and the air. 

When you get to that level of stillness and intensity and sit in meditation, you will realize what you were doing before was a circus. 

Ideal Meditation should be instant and effortless, you sit there and bum, you rip the benefits, if you are sitting and forcefully try to be peaceful, is great, like, keep doing, is better than doing nothing, but don´t think that is what is about.

That forcefully way of doing it was created by the western world. 

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The issue that after you experience psychedelic levels of consciousness, nothing less will satify you.

Most people who meditate have no idea of what consciousness is possible, so they placate themselves with their piddly results in order to rationalize their time investment. It's hard to admit to yourself that all your years of meditation has gotten you virtually nowhere.

That's not gonna be the case for everyone, but the majority.

you have a point, but i think the main issue is that people also assume that just because one is sitting with closed eyes, one is already meditating.

In most spiritual schools meditation is just a piece of the puzzle, it is only a certain aspect and is carefully put in the sadhana at a certain point, is just a step. 

Nowdays in the west people want to make it their own everything, so they say fuck all traditions schools and gurus, I know what meditation is, is just sitting here and closing my eyes, and im going to do it 1 hour, the more i do it the better!. And they don´t get much like that.

In my spiritual process Meditation only happens at the end and for some minutes.

You do it when you already have done the most intense practice, so you rip the benefits effortlessly by having your eyes closed and sitting

 You are not trying to meditate, you just sit there and close your eyes and bliss out because anyway you were already blissing out before sitting. you are just sitting and closing your eyes to go more focused and deeper into what is happening. 

But people sit and there is no preparation, they are uneasy the baseline consciousness is crap, is not activated is not intense, they are not in meditation, they are fighting with thoughts. This is not the way to do it IMO.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Javfly33

[Salvijus]

You need only one moment of meditation to become enlightened. 

(it's a clever statement, don't take it at face value) 

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by Salvijus

[Staples]

@Leo Gura I think in this case Leo is speaking directly towards using meditation for awakening. If a few minutes of meditation a day improves your quality of life then of course go and do it.

[Salvijus]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Most people who meditate have no idea of what consciousness is possible, so they placate themselves with their piddly results in order to rationalize their time investment.

Yea but those results no matter how small they may or may not be are the only results that matter in life. So it's arguably the wisest use of time in the end. 

Edited May 26, 2024 by Salvijus

[Alexop]

Not just that meditation can be useless, even psychedelics can be the same. The problem is that people try to find shortcuts to real growth. NO amount of spiritual shit can replace serious hard work, the most spiritual growth I got was from my inner fights with difficult social and life situations becoming aware of ego's stupidity.

[Javfly33]

25 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Yea but those results no matter how small they may or may not be are the only results that matter in life. So it's arguably the wisest use of time in the end. 

I think is just relative. Psychedelics touch some aspects that usually spiritual classic methods do not, the question is, are those aspects even spirituality?

Because meth or coke also touch some aspects that yoga can´t, the thing is, I´m not even interested in meth state of consciousness in the same way, as much as I recognise the unique euphoria or mystical unitary states of psychedelics, it does not necessarily mean something in regards to spirituality. 

In fact I never have felt liberated inside a trip, more energetically bound to the chemical, and demolished by force by the consciousness. That is NOT what I call liberation or proper spirituality. 

You saw something profound, so what. What? Are you more liberated now? If not time to reconsider what psychedelics are really are for. They might be great for therapeutic purposes, but we are talking about breaking free the structure of reality. For real. 

Not just visiting freedom some hours and then coming back. What kind of circus is that. 

By some weird reason, we have come to the conclusion that having certain insights or consciousness fluctuations, or certain openings beyond the mind for some hours, that that is spirituality. Mmm, no. Cmon people. What are we doing. 

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by Javfly33

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The issue that after you experience psychedelic levels of consciousness, nothing less will satify you.

The issue that after you experience heroinepsychedelic levels of blissconsciousness, nothing less will satify you.

Ken Wilber once wrote something along the lines of certain states of bliss can only be accessed in higher subtle realms or states of Awakening, and Heroine/Opiades can give a foretaste. Of course that is addictive. It is a kind of unearned divine bliss, not accessible sobre because the structure to do that is not in place. Of course that wreaks the whole growth path and its dynamic. And that is why heroine is truly evil stuff.

It is true that nothing less will satisfy oneself than the awakened states True Being brings along. And that it is normally a long and hard road achieving that sobre. But what is the alternative? Addiction?

Meditation done in the right way/technique, over long time in daily practice (even if its carried into daily life and not on the cushion) early over a decade can produce fascinating results. I can testify that, and I consider even short amounts of meditation as adding up if done with the right technique. Key is getting it working in daily life, then the necessary time of thousands of hours can be added up.

The strength of consciousness to transcend former identifications is strenghtened always, even by small amounts. Which can add up over years, decades, or lifetimes.

[Javfly33]

10 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

The issue that after you experience heroinepsychedelic levels of blissconsciousness, nothing less will satify you.

Ken Wilber once wrote something along the lines of certain states of bliss can only be accessed in higher subtle realms or states of Awakening, and Heroine/Opiades can give a foretaste. Of course that is addictive. It is a kind of unearned divine bliss, not accessible sobre because the structure to do that is not in place. Of course that wreaks the whole growth path and its dynamic. And that is why heroine is truly evil stuff.

It is true that nothing less will satisfy oneself than the awakened states True Being brings along. And that it is normally a long and hard road achieving that sobre. But what is the alternative? Addiction?

Meditation done in the right way/technique, over long time in daily practice (even if its carried into daily life and not on the cushion) early over a decade can produce fascinating results. I can testify that, and I consider even short amounts of meditation as adding up if done with the right technique. Key is getting it working in daily life, then the necessary time of thousands of hours can be added up.

The strength of consciousness to transcend former identifications is strenghtened always, even by small amounts. Which can add up over years, decades, or lifetimes.

I can verify I have tried Heroin (not IV, 'only' smoked and snorted), and still falls short of true exuberance Bliss you can naturally put consciousness is. I actually told Leo something like this last week. 

(And which is why I said psychedelics do not definetely cover the range of consciousness our being is capable of, meanwhile people usually think the opposite! That psychedelics have something that their Being do not, is the opposite.)

Not only heroin most other opiates I´ve tried and I can verify even if they might be the kind of drugs that more get close to the stillness and easiness our Being seeks, they still fall quite short, they bring down/null down certain key aspects of consciousness, providing a fake-not legit-not-fully result of the Real Deal our being can truly Be. 

Thus, why naturally, the seeking never ends until complete Unlimited unbounded, completely free Being is realized and stablished. 

If I am not the proof all of this is possible I don´t know what else...

 But people will keep believing their Being has limitations  What to do. 

Edited May 26, 2024 by Javfly33

[Water by the River]

3 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I can verify I have tried Heroin (not IV, 'only' smoked and snorted), and still falls short of true exuberance Bliss you can naturally put consciousness is. I actually told Leo something like this last week. 

(And which is why I said psychedelics do not definetely cover the range of consciousness our being is capable of, meanwhile people usually think the opposite! That psychedelics have something that their Being do not, is the opposite.)

Not only heroin most other opiates I´ve tried and I can verify even if they might be the kind of drugs that more get close to the stillness and easiness our Being seeks, they still fall quite short, they bring down/null down certain key aspects of consciousness, providing a fake-not legit-not-fully result of the Real Deal our being can truly Be. 

Thus, why naturally, the seeking never ends until complete Unlimited unbounded, completely free Being is realized and stablished. 

If I am not the proof all of this is possible I don´t know what else...

 But people will keep believing their Being has limitations  What to do. 

Exactly. Heroine is a foretaste of these states where the self-contraction is totally obliterated. Unearned bliss. That is what makes it so dangerous. Luckily, psychedelics are not that dangerous, and can be even non-addictive by boosting consciousness.

Yet, certain similiarities in possibilities of bypassing are hard to ignore. 

[Salvijus]

49 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I think is just relative

Everyone thinks values are a personal choice and everyone can have their own personal set of values unique to them. But this is not true. Truth is the only value and there's no alternative in life. Becoming more true is the only direction of value. If a psychedelic experience can help a person in that regard, great. If not, it's meaningless.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

The issue that after you experience heroinepsychedelic levels of blissconsciousness, nothing less will satify you.

Ken Wilber once wrote something along the lines of certain states of bliss can only be accessed in higher subtle realms or states of Awakening, and Heroine/Opiades can give a foretaste. Of course that is addictive. It is a kind of unearned divine bliss,

It has nothing to do with bliss or pleasure. It is simply about degree of consciousness.

Ken Wilber's comprehension of consciousnes is good, but still limited.

I don't care about pleasure, I care about Consciousness. Any pleasure that comes about is a nice byproduct, but ultimately irrelevant.

Ironically, it is meditators and Buddhists who love to talk about sitting around basking in bliss. When they should be talking about Consciousness.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't care about pleasure, I care about Consciousness. Any pleasure that comes about is a nice byproduct, but ultimately irrelevant.

Like any other being, it seems to me you strive for what brings you satisfaction. And even if that comes from "Infinitely Consciousness"-ET/research/n+1 or whatever.

Dukkha=unsatisfaction (unsatisfying is a much better translation than suffering) = separate self = appearing/imagined opposite of bliss & love of Infinite Being.

Or do you strife for dis-satisfaction?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery

These guys also did what they liked...

 

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ironically, it is meditators and Buddhists who love to talk about sitting around basking in bliss. When they should be talking about Consciousness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccidānanda

Sat!

Chit!

Sorry. 

 

Watching & cheering the Great Discoverers departing on their ships by the River. Really!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_no_man_has_gone_before#:~:text="Where no man has gone,Shatner as Captain James T.