Stage blue versus stage orange.

[Danioover9000]

   Wes Watson is actually has decent advice for those wanting to master stage orange values, this guy's good for masculinity advice and he's good for embodying stage orange values from if that's your shadow. Despite Andrew Wilson's Christian nationalist and religious take on Watson being so hyper material and unspiritual, and some slanderous takes, in terms of Spiral Dynamics stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types/traits, 9 stages of ego development, shadow aspects by Carl Jung's Architypes, other lines of development by Ken Wilbur's Integral Theory, ideological beliefs indoctrinated by society and cultural programing, information ecology we consume, and our worldviews, biases and preferences. IMO and my view Andrew Wilson and his panel of far right nationalists, or conservatives/traditionalists have little say in giving advice to young men, Wes Watson is a better stage orange advice for young men to aspire towards, because Andrew Wilson, going on some dates, finding your partner for life, being and going to social events with your partner's family, socializing, then going through the marriage, then being a father or parent yourself, having to spend 15 years to life without parole providing, protecting and caring for your devilish daughters and sons, god forbid if your children have mental disorders that's a nightmare, tackling taxes and debts and finding your life purpose and career and sorting your financial situation and education and so many other factors, you are inadequate for the average young male out there.

 

 

 

[Danioover9000]

 

[Danioover9000]

   IMO the main problem with this framing is the assumption of one right and one wrong. Absolute right/wrong framing when most young people, young males especially, actually need a role modal like Wes Watson even if he's hyper stage orange in values, especially factoring in toxic social media sites, the rise of introverts and Incels and other mentally unwell and mentally stressed out young people. The advice and principles of Andrew Wilson's side of the panel, a bunch of Christian nationalists preaching conservative and traditional values don't get is their advice will mostly be put on hold and are too soon to implement for younger people trying to discover who they are, dealing with their internalities and externalities of problems in that young age gap. I feel like this whole situation is a cart before the horse in development, we actually need young people to aspire to Wes Watson and Andrew Tate first, get their materialistic desires sorted, their desires for more capital and sex sorted first, THEN we can talk about Christian, nationalistic, conservative values later after all that selfish desire is sorted out.

 

[Danioover9000]

   So I think that the biggest issue here is how murky the definition of success is, so here it is:

What is the real meaning of success?

Success (the opposite of failure) is the status of having achieved and accomplished an aim or objective. Being successful means the achievement of desired visions and planned goals.

   Anyone here agree or disagree with this meaning? And why? I do think it's mostly consistent and if the panel started with this definition then Andrew Wilson's side would be in trouble because most religions, or most religious nationalists have had success given to them from their upbringing: They go to some church and prey with their family and community, they chit chat, they are provided more options within that community, maybe they do hard work but again it's mostly made easier for them...therefore the stage orange Wes Watson, if he wasn't so triggered emotionally has a strong and valid argument against Andrew Wilson's nationalist Christian values. For example if Wes Watson defined success like this, and pressed the issue of marriage for young people onto Andrew Wilson, claiming that his religion and some religions in history practiced arranged marriage, then what's so successful about that? What's so considered successful being identified as a religious person, say Muslim, and be given a slave/wife to marry later?

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura @Carl-Richard @OBEler @Nivsch @Vrubel @Juan @Merkabah Star @zazen @Scholar

[Danioover9000]

   Latest update:

   Firstly I agree with some points that Wes Watson brought up about toxic social media sites, and users trolling and hating too much when they could do something else far more productive. Second point I agree with, is th toxic parts of the React community, which this reactor didn't even address. Not saying that this reactor is also as toxic as the others that name tag, clout chase, drama stir, hate, farm for gotcha moments, but I'm surprised with how stoic and super rational this reactor is that he didn't address this legitimate issue here.

   Finally, will I have mixed feelings with what happened on stage, I'd pick Wes Watson over Andrew Wilson's side of Christian nationalists. Why? Because Andrew Wilson was also known as Big Papa Fascist. Why? Because in some of his past streams he actually hosted Nazis with Nazi Germany talking points mostly insinuated. And after the brutal sacrifices and millions of lives lost in WW2, I say screw fascism and Nazism, and any ideology in bed or in the same house as Nazis. So as far as I see it screw Andrew Wilson and his side, I'd pick the lesser of 2 evils which is Wes Watson! Also am a fan of rap and battle rap so technically Wes's trash talk was better than Andrew so screw him!

[Danioover9000]

   A very distorted and ideological take from an ultra far right Christian nationalist:

   Which honestly I side with Wes Watson. No time will I ever apologize, bend the knee or even respect a person who cozies up to Nazi ideology. Even if I side with a triggered alpha male, that's preferable to an ultra nationalist who sides with Nazis.

[zazen]

Interesting points - I've wondered if the worst shadow manifestation of a stage orange person (greedy Darwinian hyper materialist) is still better than the worst shadow manifestation of a stage blue person (ethnocentric religious fundamentalist) because its the worst of a higher stage vs lower stage.

Any stage can form a shadow of itself, the question is what values that shadow forms or orients itself around. 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

52 minutes ago, zazen said:

Interesting points - I've wondered if the worst shadow manifestation of a stage orange person (greedy Darwinian hyper materialist) is still better than the worst shadow manifestation of a stage blue person (ethnocentric religious fundamentalist) because its the worst of a higher stage vs lower stage.

Any stage can form a shadow of itself, the question is what values that shadow forms or orients itself around. 

   Yes, in terms of Spiral Dynamics stages of development, and Carl Jung's Architypes, the shadow and limits of stage orange/blue, I think if only individuals it's worse with stage blue than with stage orange. With a stage orange capitalist and hyper materialist, they at least are a bit ahead of material needs and money, whereas a stage blue hyper religious fundamentalist is still in some Mormon community, or Catholic community, or in an Amish community. Now at the collective level it's different, I think stage orange in this becomes worse because outreach is far greater because of technology, predatory capitalism, and higher chances of inflation, and other downstream effects of hyper capitalism, whereas with stage blue collective reach is slightly smaller.

   That said again, in the broader universal perspective, about 75% of the world is still at stage blue, more the nationalism and religious types, with roughly 15% stage orange in powerful positions, and each blue/orange society and each individual using and sharing in the technological advances by science, the capitalist's marketing and business offers tailored to blue/orange values with banks, and many other overlaps in each developmental factor makes this still a nuanced issue.

   I do also think, in context to young people, specifically males, if I'm forced to pick Wes Watson or Andrew Wilson as role modals, I'd say Wes Watson over Andrew Wilson because:

1. Young people are still mostly immature, impulsive to opportunist ego stage(Jane Loevinger's 9 stages of ego development), so they'd prefer Wes over Andrew.

2. They need external motivation early, financial freedom and independence, and an example similar to David Goggin in managing negative self talk and others hating or being negative about them, so Wes Watson is good motivation, even on the more masculine side of things.

3. Too young to consider starting a family, or even marrying early. Too much responsibility, too stressful, and they don't know and lack enough life experiences for such a huge committment. Here is where Andrew Wilson, the Christian nationalist, the big papa fascist himself, despite being conservative/traditional and exposing those values and looking calm, here his advice is only valuable later in young people's lives. Also his take on money being meaningless sucks as an argument point, I can instantly tell him to just stop paying taxes, rent, mortgages, debt, and just take groceries and gas without pay, rhetorically humiliate him and discredit him as an advisor for young people. Money is meaningless...😂

[koops]

That bold guy? Is the perfect example of toxic orange.

So cringe. 

[zazen]

@Danioover9000

Yeah, while the extreme end of stage orange wrecks the world with capitalist greed, it at least creates a world in the process, driven by autonomy and innovation, even as it’s on a path to ruin. Stage blue doesn’t destroy the world, but it doesn’t create it either. Stage blue doesn’t sell its soul for the material, but isn’t connected to the material world the soul came to experience either.

Stage blue ethnocentric fundamentalists think they’re creating a better world, when they’re really building one on exclusion—anyone who doesn’t fit their rigid mold of caste, color, or creed is left out. They think they’re superior to orange because they orient around something “transcendental” rather than the trivial material world. But they haven’t moved past the surface of their tribe’s skin color or been able to capture the essence of their scripture.

They believe they can change the world in God’s image, but they’re not even part of the world they want to change. They stay isolated in their anti-materialist communities and rural homesteads and think they’re building culture or gaining power and leverage when power and leverage isn’t built in isolation from the world but when engaged in it. Reminds me of Tradcon preppers who think they’re immune from state overreach or internet culture on their farms.

Stage blue stifles the soul, while stage orange disconnects you from it as you chase the material. But at least in moving, you might eventually find your way back to the soul through and out of the material onto the other side to stage green.

Edited June 2, 2024 by zazen

[zazen]

Stage blue thinks their God conscious but are only conscious of the humanised commandments they projected and imposed upon a Godly reality infused with God.

They rightly have an intuition of God consciousness but are incapable of going the full way in articulating or encapsulating the truth of God consciousness without creating half truths laced with falsity. 

The question of the future isn’t whether one believes in God or not but how they believe in God. As a being imposed upon reality with commandments projected by the King archetype from the human subconscious - where God is claimed to not be human but is humanised nevertheless to cope with the immensity and complexity of reality.

Or God as a being infused within reality, an essence permeating all and externalising itself in all forms but that is not external to any form big or small. Where God is witnessed as an inherent quality of the universe rather than an external entity imposing himself on the universe from afar.

In stage green we return to the soul by valuing empathy and interconnectedness. The shadow of green is when it becomes utopian by ignoring the reality of form - that inherent differences exist with inherent inequalities we’d like to equalise but that we go about equalising in a tyrannical or dysfunctional way. 

Stage green stifles innovation like blue - but in a different way. Blue isn’t open to change, green wants change but wants to change reality to what it can’t be or won’t accommodate.

Edited June 2, 2024 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

   Yes, of course money valuable! And your financial security is valuable! If I'm forced to pick role models for young men, Wes Watson over Andrew Wilson, his take on money is meaningless is idiotic! And also I distrust Christian nationalists as they're similar in ideology to Nazi Germans. Sorry alpha male insecure guy who motivational speaks as role modal over someone who's similar to Nazism and Fascists:

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

On 2024-06-02 at 7:38 AM, zazen said:

@Danioover9000

Yeah, while the extreme end of stage orange wrecks the world with capitalist greed, it at least creates a world in the process, driven by autonomy and innovation, even as it’s on a path to ruin. Stage blue doesn’t destroy the world, but it doesn’t create it either. Stage blue doesn’t sell its soul for the material, but isn’t connected to the material world the soul came to experience either.

Stage blue ethnocentric fundamentalists think they’re creating a better world, when they’re really building one on exclusion—anyone who doesn’t fit their rigid mold of caste, color, or creed is left out. They think they’re superior to orange because they orient around something “transcendental” rather than the trivial material world. But they haven’t moved past the surface of their tribe’s skin color or been able to capture the essence of their scripture.

They believe they can change the world in God’s image, but they’re not even part of the world they want to change. They stay isolated in their anti-materialist communities and rural homesteads and think they’re building culture or gaining power and leverage when power and leverage isn’t built in isolation from the world but when engaged in it. Reminds me of Tradcon preppers who think they’re immune from state overreach or internet culture on their farms.

Stage blue stifles the soul, while stage orange disconnects you from it as you chase the material. But at least in moving, you might eventually find your way back to the soul through and out of the material onto the other side to stage green.

 

On 2024-06-02 at 8:31 AM, zazen said:

Stage blue thinks their God conscious but are only conscious of the humanised commandments they projected and imposed upon a Godly reality infused with God.

They rightly have an intuition of God consciousness but are incapable of going the full way in articulating or encapsulating the truth of God consciousness without creating half truths laced with falsity. 

The question of the future isn’t whether one believes in God or not but how they believe in God. As a being imposed upon reality with commandments projected by the King archetype from the human subconscious - where God is claimed to not be human but is humanised nevertheless to cope with the immensity and complexity of reality.

Or God as a being infused within reality, an essence permeating all and externalising itself in all forms but that is not external to any form big or small. Where God is witnessed as an inherent quality of the universe rather than an external entity imposing himself on the universe from afar.

In stage green we return to the soul by valuing empathy and interconnectedness. The shadow of green is when it becomes utopian by ignoring the reality of form - that inherent differences exist with inherent inequalities we’d like to equalise but that we go about equalising in a tyrannical or dysfunctional way. 

Stage green stifles innovation like blue - but in a different way. Blue isn’t open to change, green wants change but wants to change reality to what it can’t be or won’t accommodate.

   Yes, I mostly agree. I do think though that we need to master stage orange and green together if we want to transcend the earlier prior stages of development into stage yellow or even turquoise. We must transcend and include, and unfortunately stage blue is bad at inclusion but great at exclusion of those they deem too different. In fact majority of evils in mankind is more limits of stage blue and some from red rather than stage orange and green.

[zazen]

10 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@zazen

 

   Yes, I mostly agree. I do think though that we need to master stage orange and green together if we want to transcend the earlier prior stages of development into stage yellow or even turquoise. We must transcend and include, and unfortunately stage blue is bad at inclusion but great at exclusion of those they deem too different. In fact majority of evils in mankind is more limits of stage blue and some from red rather than stage orange and green.

That was just the missing part of the puzzle for me which you just helped illuminate in my understanding - that if spiral dynamics is about including and transcending, stage blue is based solely off exclusion which limits its development and growth.

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

7 hours ago, zazen said:

That was just the missing part of the puzzle for me which you just helped illuminate in my understanding - that if spiral dynamics is about including and transcending, stage blue is based solely off exclusion which limits its development and growth.

   Yes, specifically when stage blue reaches it's excess and becomes blindly ideological and dogmatic is when that exclusion reaches it's zenith and sometimes beyond it's zenith.

   Simultaneously, some healthy stage blue is still necessary for civilization unification and formation. Some cohesion under a unifying vision is still important otherwise we'd still have hundreds of tribes with fringe worldviews practicing live human sacrificing like the Aztec empire or like the tribe in Gehenna live sacrificing children via burning them to worship a god called Moloch, among many immoral and weird worldviews that're difficult to unify. Despite how evil the Roman empire were, stage blue/red and red specifically in times of war, the Mongol empire, even Macedonia and Alexander the great's time, those were still important events even if the losers were enslaved or had to migrate elsewhere or even killed off AKA how Rome burned down Carthage, the majority of the survivors, the winners and losers, and the descendants of the winners and even the losers still benefit from those earlier empires regardless of how screwed up they were when they treated the losers. In that case it's also a case that proves collective ego and how group ego and Egregors strive for survival and strive to feast off of the group's attention and worship of those entities long ago.