Is Full Body Enough For Grow?

[The Caretaker]

I consider myself an intermediate lifter (even tho more on the lower end) and want to simplify my program and focus. I want to train 3 times a week with the same 7 exercises. How far can I expect to get?

Here are the exercises:

- https://www.strengthlog.com/smith-machine-squat/ [legs] (I prefer the stability of a machine rather than doing a normal squad)
- https://www.strengthlog.com/bar-dip/ [chest] (I know bench press is the king, but I feel very anxious doing them and half-ass it with very low results)
- https://www.strengthlog.com/deadlift/ [lower back/legs] (might replace with a back extension if this will fatigue my body too much)
- https://www.strengthlog.com/cable-close-grip-seated-row/ [upper back]
- https://www.strengthlog.com/hammer-curl/ [biceps]
- https://www.strengthlog.com/tricep-pushdown-with-rope/ [triceps]
- https://www.strengthlog.com/dumbbell-lateral-raise/ [shoulders]
+ I consider either adding or replacing 1 arm exercise with an abb exercise. To keep myself fresh, I might change the order of the exercises.

I know @Michael569 promoted something similar. Any opinions?

[QVx]

I have personally found the best results in a push, pull, legs program which focuses on your barbell compound lifts as your first two exercises.

I would advise you focus on getting proficient and comfortable with barbell squat, deadlift, military press, and flat and incline bench, row, and pull ups for maximum strength gains.

Once you’re proficient in the above, it’s simply a case of increasing intensity in training, getting sufficient rest, and having your diet dialled in.

I did one day on, one day off, and just kept to that schedule. That way, I wasn’t overly worried if I missed days as I was pretty consistent.

[Michael569]

This is definitely a good start even for an experienced lifter. Deadlifts and dips are perfect but I'd push back on smith machine squats and still encourage you to do unsupported squats. If you are worried about balance, use the safety rails that catch the bar if you lose balance and make sure to start light. Don't add more weight unless you can confidently do 8-10 reps. It is important to master the form properly before loading weights, a knowledgeable PT or a lifting coach would help you. 

As for the rest of this split, they are all like Tier 3 exercises, very isolated, single joint and not anabolic stimulating enough.  You would probably see better improvement by adding a standing shoulder press instead of lateral raises and something like wide pull-ups instead of biceps curls. The standing triceps cable press is imo one of the most useless exercises for a non-steroid user.

Overall this is a solid training and likely to lead to some improvement but if you built it around unsupported full body compound training, you would make 30-60% more progress in the same time. Honestly, the more I do this, the more convinced I am that split body training is a giant pile of rubbish that has been sold by steroid users to the natural community for too long. It doesn't work for experienced lifters like you and I, it is a waste of time, leads to exhaustion, injuries and overtraining and guys then have to rely on 250g of protein per day to stimulate sufficient muscle synthesis. I am not convinced that eating that much protein is harmless despite lack of evidence. 

If you go full body, you become so anabolic that you can easily make gains on a vegan diet with a little bit of hemp protein. I weigh 91 kilos, eat about 140-160g of protein per day (90-95% of that from plants) and have been making consistent strength gains on this program, unlike anything I've ever done before. It blows my mind how effective this routine is. 

What you need is: 

• squat or deadlift
• benchpress 
• wide pullup 
• standing shoulder press 
• pendlay row 
• dip 
• some form of abs where your legs aren't hooked to a bar, and you actually have to engage your core at 100% capacity. 
• all free weights, no machines , no cables. 
• 48-hour break between training as the peak of protein muscle synthesis occurs between 24-36 hours post-training. 

That's it. Try that and let the results speak for themselves. Ofcourse it is still a good idea to do some form of functional training like gymnastic rings, TRX, rope climbing and some occasional HIIT like boxing, Tabata etc so that you continue increasing your V02 Max because the heavier you lift the harder your cardiopulmonary system gets challenged. 

When it comes to weight training, for a natural lifter, this is as good as it gets. 

But if this feedback doesn't resonate just ignore it

Edited May 19 by Michael569

[Nilsi]

18 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

This is definitely a good start even for an experienced lifter. Deadlifts and dips are perfect but I'd push back on smith machine squats and still encourage you to do unsupported squats. If you are worried about balance, use the safety rails that catch the bar if you lose balance and make sure to start light. Don't add more weight unless you can confidently do 8-10 reps. It is important to master the form properly before loading weights, a knowledgeable PT or a lifting coach would help you. 

As for the rest of this split, they are all like Tier 3 exercises, very isolated, single joint and not anabolic stimulating enough.  You would probably see better improvement by adding a standing shoulder press instead of lateral raises and something like wide pull-ups instead of biceps curls. The standing triceps cable press is imo one of the most useless exercises for a non-steroid user.

Overall this is a solid training and likely to lead to some improvement but if you built it around unsupported full body compound training, you would make 30-60% more progress in the same time. Honestly, the more I do this, the more convinced I am that split body training is a giant pile of rubbish that has been sold by steroid users to the natural community for too long. It doesn't work for experienced lifters like you and I, it is a waste of time, leads to exhaustion, injuries and overtraining and guys then have to rely on 250g of protein per day to stimulate sufficient muscle synthesis. I am not convinced that eating that much protein is harmless despite lack of evidence. 

If you go full body, you become so anabolic that you can easily make gains on a vegan diet with a little bit of hemp protein. I weigh 91 kilos, eat about 140-160g of protein per day (90-95% of that from plants) and have been making consistent strength gains on this program, unlike anything I've ever done before. It blows my mind how effective this routine is. 

What you need is: 

• squat or deadlift
• benchpress 
• wide pullup 
• standing shoulder press 
• pendlay row 
• dip 
• some form of abs where your legs aren't hooked to a bar, and you actually have to engage your core at 100% capacity. 
• all free weights, no machines , no cables. 
• 48-hour break between training as the peak of protein muscle synthesis occurs between 24-36 hours post-training. 

That's it. Try that and let the results speak for themselves. Ofcourse it is still a good idea to do some form of functional training like gymnastic rings, TRX, rope climbing and some occasional HIIT like boxing, Tabata etc so that you continue increasing your V02 Max because the heavier you lift the harder your cardiopulmonary system gets challenged. 

When it comes to weight training, for a natural lifter, this is as good as it gets. 

But if this feedback doesn't resonate just ignore it

Are you able to increase the intensity (weight or reps) of all these exercises every training session?

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Are you able to increase the intensity (weight or reps) of all these exercises every training session?

Not every session, but I am gradually increasing the weight I can handle on an almost weekly basis. For example I've gone from being able to squat 90kg for 8 times to 140kg for 8 times within about 5 months. In the same time, I've gone from 80kg*8 benchpress to 100kg*8g. At the same time my bodyweight has only gone from 88-91 so I assume either some fat loss happened or this shit activates other, secondary pathways that enhance peak strength. 

Shoulder press I went from 45kg * 10 to 75kg * 6. My back and my grip have always been weak, so I progress the slowest with pull-ups and pendlay rows. Given that I've been lifting since 15 and made all the newbie gains long time ago, this is the most progress I've made from consistent training for the past 12+ years. 

But there are days when my strength dips. What fascinates me the most about this type of training is that when you do the same thing over and over, you can calibrate your performance and monitor the impact of, for example, fasting vs. having breakfast. You can monitor the time of the day when you are the strongest vs. when you are the weakest. I find 11-12 AM to be my golden hour; I always thought it was 6 p.m. Sleep quality has a drastic impact on this as well. Hydration does not have as much of an impact which surprised me but caffeine does, to some degree although overcaffeination (> 1 espresso) actually made me shaky and weaker on that day. I have not tried creatine or any supplement, maca would be interesting to try. 

SO I've kinda been geeking out with Chat GPT and excel spreadsheet , observing variables and modifiers that make difference. It is the most fun I've had lifting since my early 20s honestly, I'm 33 now. 

Btw I did not invent this training. Full credit to William Charters https://www.instagram.com/charters_william/

Edited May 19 by Michael569

[Nilsi]

20 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

Not every session, but I am gradually increasing the weight I can handle on an almost weekly basis. For example I've gone from being able to squat 90kg for 8 times to 140kg for 8 times within about 5 months. In the same time, I've gone from 80kg*8 benchpress to 100kg*8g. At the same time my bodyweight has only gone from 88-91 so I assume either some fat loss happened or this shit activates other, secondary pathways that enhance peak strength. 

Shoulder press I went from 45kg * 10 to 75kg * 6. My back and my grip have always been weak, so I progress the slowest with pull-ups and pendlay rows. Given that I've been lifting since 15 and made all the newbie gains long time ago, this is the most progress I've made from consistent training for the past 12+ years. 

But there are days when my strength dips. What fascinates me the most about this type of training is that when you do the same thing over and over, you can calibrate your performance and monitor the impact of, for example, fasting vs. having breakfast. You can monitor the time of the day when you are the strongest vs. when you are the weakest. I find 11-12 AM to be my golden hour; I always thought it was 6 p.m. Sleep quality has a drastic impact on this as well. Hydration does not have as much of an impact which surprised me but caffeine does, to some degree although overcaffeination (> 1 espresso) actually made me shaky and weaker on that day. I have not tried creatine or any supplement, maca would be interesting to try. 

SO I've kinda been geeking out with Chat GPT and excel spreadsheet , observing variables and modifiers that make difference. It is the most fun I've had lifting since my early 20s honestly, I'm 33 now. 

Btw I did not invent this training. Full credit to William Charters https://www.instagram.com/charters_william/

I'm on a Mike Mentzer-style HIT training regimen and a 3-day split, and I can reliably increase the intensity of every exercise in every training session. I don't know much about the science of training, and what I do might not be the most efficient way of training, but it feels very satisfying to know that when I show up, focus, and push through my psychological barriers, I can make gains every single time. Also, I usually don't work out for longer than 20 minutes in a given session, so this works quite well with my very busy schedule.

Any thoughts on this training style?

[Michael569]

@Nilsi I am not very familiar with Mike's story, The issue I have with that whole bodybuilding period is that I don't believe any of those guys were ever clean. Whether you look at Franco Columbu, Sergio Oliva, Kevin Levrone,  Mike O'Hearn, Dorian Yates - all of these guys were on high volumes of steroid cycles. Potentially even someone as lean as symmetrical as Frank Zane would have been enhanced. But ofcourse we can't prove anything. Maybe Mike was different and extremely genetically gifted? Maybe. But I think there are limits to natural development as most bodybuilders already train at peak of human capacities and those who are natural and those who are not look nowhere near the same. 

The most prominent is how they look when they cut and how lean they can become during a severely catabolic diet. This is where steroids protect you from severe loss of muscle tissue. 

According to nattyornot  https://nattyornot.com/mike-mentzer-use-steroids/

"Mike Mentzer believed that natural bodybuilders should introduce long rest periods between training sessions to ensure proper muscle and joint recovery. According to him, pro bodybuilders get away with frequent high-volume training thanks to the steroids in their systems." - I would agree with this. 

But then they go on about this (I dont know if this is true or not) 

"According to another legendary bodybuilder, Casey Viator, who was close with Mike Mentzer and his brother Ray Mentzer, Mike used to take about 2.5 grams of Deca a week, along with other drugs such as Primobolin and Dianabol. Here’s an excerpt written by Nelson Montana, author of The Bodybuilding Truth:

“I have fairly recently trained down in Florida with top pro of the 70’s and early 80’s CASEY VIATOR. I asked him directly about steroid use in the 70’s and this is what he had to say…. and I quote…

‘Don’t let anyone fool you about our low doses. We were just as reckless with steroid use as they are today.’

I asked him when the big doses started….

‘The big doses started around 1974 and yes we were all right on top of it. Yes we ALL used GH back then and it was from real cadavers. The GH we all used was called CRESCORMIN and nobody was going to morgues to get it’.

I wanted an example and I told him about what I heard my mentor, and his friend and former training partner, Mike Mentzer used……only 400 of deca/week and 30 of d-bol/day.

CASEY LAUGHED and then said this….Mentzer used up to 2.5 grams of deca a week, God knows how much primobolin acetate, along with d-bol and growth, so as I said don’t be fooled about our low doses as we were just as reckless as theses guys are today.”

I love this 

If all drug usage is discontinued, the muscle industry will collapse because people will suddenly realize that their idols don’t look nearly as impressive naturally. Therefore, the incentive to buy supplements and training programs will drop. This will lead to the bankruptcy of many companies.

in summary 

I think if you enjoy the training and it brings you results, carry on with it, just err on the side of scepticism where claims are being made about what is naturally achievable.

If you are relatively new to weight training you will make gains on any training routine because your body is unused to this level of mechanical stimulation. It is only after you get the newbie gains that you start noticing how your body responds to different ways of training. 

Edited May 19 by Michael569

[Nilsi]

26 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

@Nilsi "Mike Mentzer believed that natural bodybuilders should introduce long rest periods between training sessions to ensure proper muscle and joint recovery. According to him, pro bodybuilders get away with frequent high-volume training thanks to the steroids in their systems." - I would agree with this. 

Let’s zoom in on that.

Doing heavy compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, bench presses, and such multiple times a week, as you seem to suggest, strikes me as quite a lot. Mentzer recommended one workout per week, or even less frequently. The 3-day split is actually more of a compromise from his point of view, but he gave some guidance on that as well, so that’s what I’m running with.

He doesn’t look natural to me at all, lol, and I don’t have any ambitions to get anywhere close to as big. Quite the contrary. I’m rather afraid of getting too big because that’s not what I’m aesthetically aiming for, and it wouldn’t work with my wardrobe and fashion preferences.

[Michael569]

30 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Doing heavy compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, bench presses, and such multiple times a week, as you seem to suggest, strikes me as quite a lot. Mentzer recommended one workout per week, or even less frequently.

The aim of that training is to go heavy but not to the point of complete exhaustion, in fact you don't want to go to that point as it may trigger a catabolic response through a lot of circulating cortisol. You kinda want to feel like "that was a hard session but I could do a bit more if I had to" . As such 3 such sessions per week are doable but I think it is not appropriate to a beginner as there is a prerequisite that some foundations are already in place. 

In the end it comes down to what you write in the second paragraph, what your goals and aims are. If you want to stay mostly lean, mostly similar body weight, and just exercise to stay in shape, then once or twice a week might be enough, but I think if the goal is different, it might not be enough. 

I like being a little bit bigger and absolutely love being strong and feeling that my body can take more than average person's. It is kinda egotistical and vane but then, we can't all be saints! It's part of my branding of my health business as well as, in this industry, people judge you based on knowledge and competency but also based on looks. 

 

Edited May 19 by Michael569

[Nilsi]

44 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

The aim of that training is to go heavy but not to the point of complete exhaustion, in fact you don't want to go to that point as it may trigger a catabolic response through a lot of circulating cortisol. You kinda want to feel like "that was a hard session but I could do a bit more if I had to" . As such 3 such sessions per week are doable but I think it is not appropriate to a beginner as there is a prerequisite that some foundations are already in place. 

In the end it comes down to what you write in the second paragraph, what your goals and aims are. If you want to stay mostly lean, mostly similar body weight, and just exercise to stay in shape, then once or twice a week might be enough, but I think if the goal is different, it might not be enough. 

I like being a little bit bigger and absolutely love being strong and feeling that my body can take more than average person's. It is kinda egotistical and vane but then, we can't all be saints! It's part of my branding of my health business as well as, in this industry, people judge you based on knowledge and competency but also based on looks. 

 

Don’t get me wrong, I like being bigger and stronger than the average guy as well, just not excessively so. Brad Pitt in Fight Club is roughly my ideal body type, and I’m reasonably close (apart from abs, which i lack a lot of) I would say.

What you bring up about not pushing yourself to your limit is precisely the disagreement, I think, because that’s the whole premise of Mentzer’s high-intensity training, and it’s what I like as well - it gives you that extra workout for your mindset.

Anyways, I don’t think there is necessarily a right or wrong approach, as you said. I was just curious about your perspective, since you obviously are way more knowledgeable and experienced in this than I am.

Edited May 19 by Nilsi

[Jannes]

You probably won't become an advanced lifter with that, that's just good enough to get the newbie gains and some of the intermediate gains. 

At some point exercises become stale, you simply need to switch them out to stimulate growth and to give your joints and connective tissues a break. So the next step would be to change out some exercises. You can keep doing whole body but maybe rotate between day A and B where you have different exercises. 

How about:

Day B:

- Leg press (quads and adductor)

- Leg Curl (hamstring)

- if you care about training glutes as well: Lunges (you probably only need 1 set) 

- Pull Ups (back)

- Wide Grip Push Ups (chest, front delt)

- Cable Lateral Raises (side delts)

- Close Grip Bench (triceps)

- barbell bicep curl (biceps)

 

Doing deadlifts 3 times a week is overkill because of all the axial fatigue (that comes from stress on your spine), if you alternate between these two training days you will accumulate a lot less fatigue as this training is very light on axial loading. 

This training can get you to the next level. Then you need to step up your game again.

Edited May 20 by Jannes

[Michael569]

19 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Anyways, I don’t think there is necessarily a right or wrong approach, as you said

Agreed, let's leave it there Thanks for the chat ! 

[Jannes]

@Nilsi Science has evolved a lot since back then. 

 

[The Caretaker]

Thank you all for your contribution. I will try to make some changes you mentioned and see where it goes.

[The Caretaker]

Time for updates.

For the first 2 months, I went for 2 times a week. Now I do 3 times a week the regiment in this order.

• Inclined bench press
• Deadlift (skip every second workout)
• Pendlay Row
• Pull up (with band) or lat machine
• Dips (with band) or dip machine
• Dumbbell Shoulder Press
• Inclined sit-ups with some weight

I found my rhythm and sometimes I mix the order, but encountered a few problems.
 

As @Michael569 mentioned, my endurance is getting low on high weights. I do 110kg deadlift for 6 reps, which is decent for my size. However, I need to rest for 5-6m before every set, which used to be only around 3m. I want to add some 30m cardio on Tuesday and Thursday. What you could recommend? (note - I do 10.000 steps almost every day. I don't run out of energy or vitality, I just struggle with big weights).

Second, I don't really feel my abs during inclined sit-ups. It feels more like an aerobic exercise. It became even more evident when I tried Upper Abdominal Machine. My muscles were struggling and I finally had to push.

And last. Do I really need a belt? I use gloves with straps for deadlifts, and they do wonders for my grip. I don't want to cross the line of x2 my body weight.

[QVx]

I tried the program Michael suggested and it was far too much volume for me personally.

Your rest period of 5-6 mins is way too long. Keep it between 1-3 mins; look at your programming, once again there is too much volume on each session. 
 

Cardio is fine, just aim to plan it in on rest days; cycling and running is great.

Try hanging leg raises and its variations for a big ab workout.

You don’t need a belt, gloves, or straps. These are for one to two rep max lifts. Ditch them going forward; you should be building grip strength by not using straps, not bypassing it.

[The Caretaker]

@QVx I like the simplicity of this program. And I do see some results, but yeah, I understand the limitations.

[QVx]

Here’s my current maintenance program;

 

Day 1:

Flat bench - 60

Pull up - 0

Military press - 30

Barbell row - 60

 

Day 2:

Deadlift - 90

Back squat - 70

RDL - 50 / HLR - 0

 

3 sets of 12 reps 

Rinse and repeat as needed; I typically do it twice a week

Edited August 25 by QVx

[The Caretaker]

Yeah, for maintenance looks decent. When I start cutting I might stagnate it as well and limit it to 2 times, but for now I quite like the regiment.

[Michael569]

A short update on the program I shared. I'm still doing but with less frequency and I started going much much lower on squats as I was told "ass on the grass" is preferable to paralell legs. This means my squatting weight has gone down significantly although I feel my glutes and hamstrings 3 times as much. 

I also slightly improved my benchpress technique so the weight has gone down slightly. I think I was ego lifting a bit as well. 

The results were quite impressive tho but I actually noticed myself bulking too quickly and I got almost 95 kilos so I tuned it down a bit, added more cardio and got back to 88kilos which I'm more comfortable with. I didn't notice any drop in stamina all the way throughout so that was also a bonus. I think the training itself is a great cardio work as well because it is so heavy and demanding. 

But overall, anyone looking for pretty impressive strength gains and hypertrophy, I honestly don't think anything (without roids) beats that routine, at least not anything I've tried over the 19 years of training on & off. 

Edited August 27 by Michael569