Behind the eyes POV

[Dodo]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

What if Mind and Heart were one?

Mind thinks, Heart knows

Mind judges, Heart forgives

Mind is relative, Heart is absolute. 

 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Dodo said:

Mind thinks, Heart knows

Mind judges, Heart forgives

Mind is relative, Heart is absolute. 

 

You've labeled Mind as ego.   But that is just a perspective. 

[Dodo]

8 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

You've labeled Mind as ego.   But that is just a perspective. 

Mind trying to take advantage of the innocence of the Heart by being sneaky, what's new! 

Male principle trying to overpower the female principle, nothing new.

 

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Mind trying to take advantage of the innocence of the Heart by being sneaky, what's new! 

Male principle trying to overpower the female principle, nothing new.

 

This is interesting..the way you have tried to direct the dialogue.   I tried to suggest that Consciousness is none other than Mind - and when I did you appealed to the heart.  Then when I said that you labeled Mind as something different than the heart you said that it's male persuasion.  You do love to project!  I mean seriously man - we are trying to have a metaphysical dialogue and you want to turn it into some type of male vs female thing.   At least years ago we had decent arguments.  

[Javfly33]

On 18/05/2024 at 10:52 PM, LSD-Rumi said:

. What does that mean exactly? 

That means ego wasn´t really dissolved.

Edited May 21 by Javfly33

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Javfly33 said:

That means ego wasn´t really dissolved.

Exactly.

[Dodo]

13 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is interesting..the way you have tried to direct the dialogue.   I tried to suggest that Consciousness is none other than Mind - and when I did you appealed to the heart.  Then when I said that you labeled Mind as something different than the heart you said that it's male persuasion.  You do love to project!  I mean seriously man - we are trying to have a metaphysical dialogue and you want to turn it into some type of male vs female thing.   At least years ago we had decent arguments.  

Perhaps you think I am trying to argue for arguments sake, im not. 

The male female duality/polarity is very interesting to observe. The two couldn't be more different.

In my personal opinion mind is not consciousness. Being is consciousness, if you don't like the word Heart. You know all that, everyone here knows that.

The mind's last attempts at taking back the reigns! Why do you think You are immune to zen devilry? I certainly am not immune, I am only trying to be as honest as possible. 

What do we say about the state of No Mind. Consciousness ceases to be? If Consciousness IS whether mind or no mind, then it is not Mind, even if Mind can say they are the same. 

The Canvas IS. Mind is at best like a white or transparent ink on the canvas trying to pretend its the canvas. Mind is not eternal, and we should be happy for this. 

Ps: listen to the John Lennon video, it's amazing.

Edited May 21 by Dodo

[Dodo]

21 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is interesting..the way you have tried to direct the dialogue.   I tried to suggest that Consciousness is none other than Mind - and when I did you appealed to the heart.  Then when I said that you labeled Mind as something different than the heart you said that it's male persuasion.  You do love to project!  I mean seriously man - we are trying to have a metaphysical dialogue and you want to turn it into some type of male vs female thing.   At least years ago we had decent arguments.  

Just to understand my point, I equated mind to male and heart/being to female, because mind is duality and the other is nonduality, the exact polar opposites. 

Mind Is Duality,  you can't have nonduality in the Mind. Mind is a tool designed to divide. It is useful to divide, I am not saying to scrap the mind, im saying its not the Absolute.

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Perhaps you think I am trying to argue for arguments sake, im not. 

The male female duality/polarity is very interesting to observe. The two couldn't be more different.

 

It may be interesting to observe but it really has nothing to do with the conversation in my opinion. 

 

10 minutes ago, Dodo said:

.What do we say about the state of No Mind. Consciousness ceases to be? If Consciousness IS whether mind or no mind, then it is not Mind, even if Mind can say they are the same. 

That's no different than saying Consciousness is the same whether it's finite or Infinite.  

[Inliytened1]

13 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Just to understand my point, I equated mind to male and heart/being to female, because mind is duality and the other is nonduality, the exact polar opposites. 

 

Duality and non-duality being polar opposites would be still a duality.   So you are contradicting yourself. 

[Dodo]

42 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Duality and non-duality being polar opposites would be still a duality.   So you are contradicting yourself. 

I know, I said this to Razard also. When we talk about paradoxical subject with words, we are bound to contradict ourselves. 

Youve probably heard spiritual teachings that contradict themselves. 

This is not a conversation for minds, you agree that male and female are different? You want to be both? Separation and diversity is natural part for Life. All united under consciousness.

Duality is the creation of nonduality, opposition, play of form.

The creation is not the creator. If there is no creation, there is no creator. If the creation is the creator, then was anything really created?

Edited May 21 by Dodo

[LSD-Rumi]

@Leo Gura, Could you write your perspective on this issue?

[Ahbapx]

We are neither finite consciousness, nor infinite consciousness.

We have consciousness along with many unconscious biomechanisms. 

 

If we were consciousness, when we are in deep sleep, do we cease to exist?

Do we say, I got shut down? No, because many functions of us are still working when we are in deep sleep.

Only our consciousness gets shut down temporarily.

[Dodo]

14 hours ago, Ahbapx said:

We are neither finite consciousness, nor infinite consciousness.

We have consciousness along with many unconscious biomechanisms. 

 

If we were consciousness, when we are in deep sleep, do we cease to exist?

Do we say, I got shut down? No, because many functions of us are still working when we are in deep sleep.

Only our consciousness gets shut down temporarily.

Thats a common misconception. In deep sleep there is no mind. Consciousness does not cease. People here keep equating consciousness to Mind.

You have to be open to the possibility that you don't understand what consciousness is. Mind wants to know everything. 

The eye cannot see itself. Consciousness sees Mind Body and Soul, but it cant turn around and see itself. Only objects can be perceived, consciousness cannot be perceived. 

Don't think you know what consciousness is! Ever heeard that enlightenment is not an experience? Thats definitely not what the mind wants to hear. We want trumpets 

 

Edited May 22 by Dodo

[Ahbapx]

2 hours ago, Dodo said:

Thats a common misconception. In deep sleep there is no mind. Consciousness does not cease. People here keep equating consciousness to Mind.

You have to be open to the possibility that you don't understand what consciousness is. Mind wants to know everything. 

The eye cannot see itself. Consciousness sees Mind Body and Soul, but it cant turn around and see itself. Only objects can be perceived, consciousness cannot be perceived. 

Don't think you know what consciousness is! Ever heeard that enlightenment is not an experience? Thats definitely not what the mind wants to hear. We want trumpets 

 

You have literally zero evidence for your claim, while I have many studies and tests supporting my claim.

 

I think most likely the mind is the consciousness,

or consciousness is the conscious part of the mind, not sure.

 

"consciousness cannot be perceived"... you are obviously confused, right?

Knowing that you are conscious is you recognizing your consciousness with your consciousness.

 

I don't care about enlightenment at all and I don't know what it is.

Also if it's not an experience, there is nothing to chase.

 

 

 

[enchanted]

4 hours ago, Ahbapx said:

You have literally zero evidence for your claim, while I have many studies and tests supporting my claim.

 

I think most likely the mind is the consciousness,

or consciousness is the conscious part of the mind, not sure.

 

"consciousness cannot be perceived"... you are obviously confused, right?

Knowing that you are conscious is you recognizing your consciousness with your consciousness.

 

I don't care about enlightenment at all and I don't know what it is.

You are in a volleyball forum arguing why soccer is better and I'm not sure why. But I will indulge you a little if you like. 

Studies and tests don't matter when talking about consciousness since studies and tests are in consciousness. Even scientists who study consciousness admit this. 

4 hours ago, Ahbapx said:

Also if it's not an experience, there is nothing to chase.

Yes this is true. We call this an insight and what this forum is all about. 

Another good question is where is all the information in the universe stored, if not in consciousness? Consciousness is the only apparent answer, and there can be no other answer, not even in theory. 

Hope you find this interesting. I probably won't reply if your answer is just mindless angry arguing. But if you are interested in a healthy debate where both sides can learn something I look forward to your answer. 

[Ahbapx]

15 hours ago, enchanted said:

You are in a volleyball forum arguing why soccer is better and I'm not sure why.

Why not? I have been following Leo and Forum for at least 3 years, Weirdly enough even though I disagree with the most fundamental points, I agree with a lot of other things. 

16 hours ago, enchanted said:

Studies and tests don't matter when talking about consciousness since studies and tests are in consciousness. Even scientists who study consciousness admit this. 

I don't know what you mean. I meant conscious people are doing a test on another unconscious person who is in deep sleep.

16 hours ago, enchanted said:

Another good question is where is all the information in the universe stored, if not in consciousness? Consciousness is the only apparent answer, and there can be no other answer, not even in theory. 

I don't think we should just accept that the information is "stored" in an external being/format.

Yes God might store it, in Islam there is Lawh-i Mahfouz, Hinduism and Buddism are influenced by "Akashic Records" ,

if I am not wrong in Judaism and Christianity there is the Book of Life. 

They might be right.

 

 

[Dodo]

On 22/05/2024 at 10:53 AM, Ahbapx said:

You have literally zero evidence for your claim, while I have many studies and tests supporting my claim.

 

I think most likely the mind is the consciousness,

or consciousness is the conscious part of the mind, not sure.

 

"consciousness cannot be perceived"... you are obviously confused, right?

Knowing that you are conscious is you recognizing your consciousness with your consciousness.

 

I don't care about enlightenment at all and I don't know what it is.

Also if it's not an experience, there is nothing to chase.

Lets take the duality Subject -> object.

Subject is the one that knows, object is the one that is known. 

Being conscious of consciousness itself is the pinacle of enlightenment. 

You are being conscious that you are conscious of mind, you are still looking at an object, even if it is subtle.

How does the subject become aware of itself? How does the subject see itself as an object? The analogy of the eye is good way to point to this. The moment consciousness looks for itself and turns around, it still is the observer and not the observed, its still on the other side of what is observed. 

To be aware of awareness or conscious of consciousness is like knowing being itself, without an object being beinged. I dont know how to explain it better. Its like being aware of emptiness. No Mind can grasp that.

Your problem is you Think, you cant think about consciousness. Consciousness is that which knows the thinking. Whether you think X Or Y, the same consciousness knows it. Whatever the object of knowing, the subject remains the same. 

You can say "I have consciousness" or you can say "I am consciousness", both of these thoughts arise in what? Consciousness.

Deep sleep is the experience of no mind and no world, there that non experience arises in what? Consciousness.  Ofcourse its an experience of nothing, and the subject itself remains, but the subject itself cannot see itself.

Thats why you think you stop being conscious during deep sleep, but in fact you are just conscious of nothing during that time. Not even your mind and self, just pure consciousness, source. 

 

[Ahbapx]

52 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Lets take the duality Subject -> object.

Subject is the one that knows, object is the one that is known. 

Being conscious of consciousness itself is the pinacle of enlightenment. 

You are being conscious that you are conscious of mind, you are still looking at an object, even if it is subtle.

How does the subject become aware of itself? How does the subject see itself as an object? The analogy of the eye is good way to point to this. The moment consciousness looks for itself and turns around, it still is the observer and not the observed, its still on the other side of what is observed. 

To be aware of awareness or conscious of consciousness is like knowing being itself, without an object being beinged. I dont know how to explain it better. Its like being aware of emptiness. No Mind can grasp that.

Your problem is you Think, you cant think about consciousness. Consciousness is that which knows the thinking. Whether you think X Or Y, the same consciousness knows it. Whatever the object of knowing, the subject remains the same. 

A subject can be an object, an object can be a subject. We are objects and subjects. Our consciousness is subject and object.

At the natural, at ease state of consciousness, you don't have to do any action or effort to recognize you exist. You simply know you exist by recognizing you being conscious with your consciousness without any effort.

The whole notion of "looks for itself and turns around" is a mistake, because it can't look at itself that way, because that would make it two, 

instead, consciousness is recognizing itself as the result.

 

How consciousness occurs is the mystery, my view is neural activity starts to use its own outputs as inputs, so it forms connections to itself, when this becomes as vast as enough, as complex as enough, as fast as enough,  then consciousness slowly emerges.

Why does it form connections to itself? you might ask, for evolutionary purposes, because there is no greater path than this because it will allow more possibilities via conscious control. meaning it is the only evolutionary trajectory.

 

When I say mind, I mean cognition, not thoughts. You somehow put a distinction between mind and consciousness.  But for me, they are very very similar, so it is hard for me to deny the possibility of them being the same thing.

 

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

You can say "I have consciousness" or you can say "I am consciousness", both of these thoughts arise in what? Consciousness.

When I say I have consciousness or I am conscious, these words/thoughts have nothing to do with natural cognition of awareness, I don't need to think to be aware. And in my opinion, I am not consciousness, I claim to have consciousness. 

1 hour ago, Dodo said:

Deep sleep is the experience of no mind and no world, there that non experience arises in what? Consciousness.  Ofcourse its an experience of nothing, and the subject itself remains, but the subject itself cannot see itself.

Thats why you think you stop being conscious during deep sleep, but in fact you are just conscious of nothing during that time. Not even your mind and self, just pure consciousness, source. 

 

I don't get your point, on one hand, I think you imply you are conscious during deep sleep, on the other hand, you say you are not conscious during deep sleep. Being conscious of nothing means you are not conscious.

 

 

[Dodo]

8 hours ago, Ahbapx said:

A subject can be an object, an object can be a subject. We are objects and subjects. Our consciousness is subject and object.

At the natural, at ease state of consciousness, you don't have to do any action or effort to recognize you exist. You simply know you exist by recognizing you being conscious with your consciousness without any effort.

The whole notion of "looks for itself and turns around" is a mistake, because it can't look at itself that way, because that would make it two, 

instead, consciousness is recognizing itself as the result.

 

How consciousness occurs is the mystery, my view is neural activity starts to use its own outputs as inputs, so it forms connections to itself, when this becomes as vast as enough, as complex as enough, as fast as enough,  then consciousness slowly emerges.

Why does it form connections to itself? you might ask, for evolutionary purposes, because there is no greater path than this because it will allow more possibilities via conscious control. meaning it is the only evolutionary trajectory.

 

When I say mind, I mean cognition, not thoughts. You somehow put a distinction between mind and consciousness.  But for me, they are very very similar, so it is hard for me to deny the possibility of them being the same thing.

 

When I say I have consciousness or I am conscious, these words/thoughts have nothing to do with natural cognition of awareness, I don't need to think to be aware. And in my opinion, I am not consciousness, I claim to have consciousness. 

I don't get your point, on one hand, I think you imply you are conscious during deep sleep, on the other hand, you say you are not conscious during deep sleep. Being conscious of nothing means you are not conscious.

 

 

My friend you are theorising. You say some good things about the no effort recognition and then your mind swoops in! 

You dont get how close and how far you are at the same time. Its like talking to someone  who gets it and doesnt get it at the same time! 

You equate consciousness to self. But it is the NoSelf. The Higher self. The Isness that is Universal, not just for your mind.

Its the same for the ants, the same for the bees, the same for the crows, the same for the trees.

Perhaps its a mystery how consciousness arises, because it doesn't arise. Perhaps it is always there, like the canvas of a grand painting. 

Some say Truth is way too simple, it gets overlooked and handwaved as not important. Slow down! The effortless knowing bit, start to get interested in what that is, experientially.

Some say, Marinate in the Truth. 

Edited May 24 by Dodo