Pure Consciousness Is Better?

[zazed]

2 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

The thing is, if we say those are real, that creates a duality - consciousness,  me, here, subject - things there.

Even on the level of mind we can talk about this:

If the working hypothesis is that consciousness is the only real thing,  the one, then there could be nothing else real.

The tree can be real only if it's viewed entirely as consciousness, only one substance. No separate real tree, but part of the connected whole.

Its much simpler really.

The tree exists, the brain recognizes the tree, the body has emotions about the tree.
None of those is you, but you are very much aware of them.

You are that which is aware of those things, nothing more, nothing less.
It is so simple, it is ridiculous, and still people cannot understand  

If you think it is abstract, you are overthinking it:

You are that which is aware.

You are not that which thinks.
You are not that which sees.
You are not that which feels.
You are not that which hears.
You are not that which dies.

You are that which is aware. You can only ever be aware. You can never be aware of awareness.
So, you can only ever be aware of that which you are not.
Everything you are aware of, you are not.
You can never know yourself as awareness.

 

[Dodo]

2 minutes ago, zazed said:

Its much simpler really.

The tree exists, the brain recognizes the tree, the body has emotions about the tree.
None of those is you, but you are very much aware of them.

You are that which is aware of those things, nothing more, nothing less.
It is so simple, it is ridiculous, and still people cannot understand  

If you think it is abstract, you are overthinking it:

You are that which is aware.

You are not that which thinks.
You are not that which sees.
You are not that which feels.
You are not that which hears.
You are not that which dies.

You are that which is aware. You can only ever be aware. You can never be aware of awareness.
So, you can only ever be aware of that which you are not.
Everything you are aware of, you are not.
You can never know yourself as awareness.

 

Don't enlightened masters say that consciousness is aware of itself? ( awareness is aware of itself somehow, maybe because everything is it)

The thing is, you say everything is real, but I've watched too much Rupert Spira, and know that this cannot be the case... Through first hand experience, the only thing real is the awareness of those things, there is no way to prove their reality.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Dodoster

[SOUL]

34 minutes ago, zazed said:

Awareness cannot be aware of itself.

Awareness is aware of being aware.

[zazed]

Just now, Dodoster said:

Don't enlightened masters say that consciousness is aware of itself? ( awareness is aware of itself somehow)

Perhaps they say that, or it is an incorrect translation. Most masters did not write it in the language you read it. So your trusting unenlightened translators.

You can be awareness.
You can be being.
Both are the same.


But you are already that. You just don't realize it.
If you were not it, you would not exist.

Awareness cannot be aware of itself. Because awareness already is awareness.
It's like shining a light upon a light. Awareness can only be aware of what it is not, and what it is not is your thoughts, mind, body.

There is something to be had, but in my experience, it really defies words.
There is awareness of being awareness yes, but it is more in the sense of being aware of all the things you are not.

[Dodo]

9 minutes ago, zazed said:

Perhaps they say that, or it is an incorrect translation. Most masters did not write it in the language you read it. So your trusting unenlightened translators.

You can be awareness.
You can be being.
Both are the same.


But you are already that. You just don't realize it.
If you were not it, you would not exist.

Awareness cannot be aware of itself. Because awareness already is awareness.
It's like shining a light upon a light. Awareness can only be aware of what it is not, and what it is not is your thoughts, mind, body.

There is something to be had, but in my experience, it really defies words.
There is awareness of being awareness yes, but it is more in the sense of being aware of all the things you are not.

Isn't this the first step, then the next step after realising you are awareness is to merge with everything and realise you Are everything,  so in fact the whole time you were aware of yourself and only yourself AKA non-duality AKA everything is awareness and nothing else exists, nothing else is real.

Im talking on the level of mind, I am yet to get step one to be consistent But I definitely understand what you're saying. A lot of self enquiry under my illusory belt

But I still believe I'm saying the truth here, because of definitions, meaning, the thing the word Non Duality points to cannot in any shape or form include more than one things.

ANd if you believe in the NonDual hypothesis,  you shouldn't stop at separation between you, subject and observed, object.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Dodoster

[Shin]

Just read this.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Shin

[Prabhaker]

11 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

Don't enlightened masters say that consciousness is aware of itself? ( awareness is aware of itself somehow, maybe because everything is it)

The statement that “the observer is the observed” is one of the most significant things ever said by any man on the earth. The statement is as extraordinary as J. Krishnamurti was.

It is difficult to understand it only intellectually, because the way of the intellect is dialectical, dualistic.

On the path of intellect the subject can never be the object, the seer can never be the seen. The observer cannot be the observed. As far as intellect is concerned, it is an absurd statement, meaningless – not only meaningless, but insane.

The intellectual approach towards reality is that of division: the knower and the known have to be separate. Only then is there a possibility of knowledge between the two. The scientist cannot become science, the scientist has to remain separate from what he is doing. The experimenter is not allowed to become the experiment itself. As far as intellect is concerned, logic is concerned, it looks absolutely valid.

But there is a knowledge that pass the understanding, there is a knowing that goes beyond science.

This is the state J. Krishnamurti’s statement is pointing at. When there is nothing to observe, when there is only the observer left, then the observer itself becomes the observed – because there is nothing else to observe, what else to do? The knower simply knows itself. The seer sees himself.

[zazed]

Just now, Dodoster said:

Isn't this the first step, then the next step after realising you are awareness is to merge with everything and realise you Are everything,  so in fact the whole time you were aware of yourself and only yourself AKA non-duality AKA everything is awareness and nothing else exists, nothing else is real.

Yeah, more or less.

What you must realize, awareness is not human vision and it does not have human vision.
Awareness is aware of human vision.

So what is awareness. It is the thing perceiving sound, sight, feelings, smells.

In that sense, what you are conscious of most of the time, is just this human body. And everything you as consciousness sees, is a part of the perceptions you have of this human body. This is why the self identity is so strong for us.

But in reality, everything you are aware of, is only facilitated by the human body and the brain.
So you don't see my words on a screen. Instead you are conscious of your brain seeing pixels and translating them into words, and you are conscious of that. In that sense, everything is you, but everything is not really you.

 

It's highly irrelevant to becoming enlightened, to understand the correct definitions of the world outside.
It won't really help you to think you are one with everything. When you need to stop thinking and just become awareness itself.
There is no effort in becoming consciousness, you don't need to understand anything. You just need to be aware.
You need to do less...
 

[zazed]

7 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

This is the state J. Krishnamurti’s statement is pointing at. When there is nothing to observe, when there is only the observer left, then the observer itself becomes the observed – because there is nothing else to observe, what else to do? The knower simply knows itself. The seer sees himself.

Your entire post resonates with my exact experiences.

In my experience, you become aware of your thoughts stopping. And there is nothing left, there is this great emptiness.
But it is intensely aware of everything happening to your body and around it via the senses.
In this way you become aware of that what you are not, which is at that point everything you are aware of. You are aware of being aware of not being what you are aware of.

[Prabhaker]

2 minutes ago, zazed said:

In this way you become aware of that what you are not,

You are talking about state of meditation, J. Krishnamurti was talking about state of enlightenment. When you are not , only existence is. then “the observer is the observed”. You become one with existence.

[zazed]

Just now, Prabhaker said:

You are talking about state of meditation, J. Krishnamurti was talking about state of enlightenment. When you are not , only existence is. then “the observer is the observed”. You become one with existence.

So kind of you to assume  
I am talking about a state of being tho.
I did not have this only when meditating, i walked around like this for hours this weekend, and even in this moment.

I am talking about all the stuff happening when walking around, stuff you cannot avoid even if you are enlightened, if you want to live.
Like just now i was checking my fridge and thought briefly "i didn't want to cook", then i thought "it doesn't really matter". At the same time there was this perception of these thoughts that was really me. Like i'm an action figure being dragged around by consciousness, but that is also incorrect to state. The action figure still speaks, it's alive, it still has problems  

But I have no problems, i'm just perceiving this monkey's problems, this monkey that happens to be at the center of all that i can perceive, and this monkey even thinks it is me sometimes, funny... This is what my consciousness would think, if it could think or communicate its thoughts.

[Prabhaker]

@zazed

Swami Ram Tirth always said, 'The moon and the stars, revolve within me, the sun rises within me.' To a psychologist, this man may appear a neurotic or a psychotic. His brain is deranged he moon and stars are always in the outer world, how can they be within. There is truth in what the psychologist says. He is right as far as his understanding goes, but he hasn't got the experience which people like Ramtirth have.

People like Ramtirth have expounded upto cosmic-body. The endless boundaries of the universe are now their boundaries, so they will experience all revolvings within themselves. Such an individual can say, 'I see the world being created and being destroyed, I see the moon and stars taking births and dying.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama_Tirtha

[Dodo]

@Prabhaker

I agree with you, but there are some things that just science cannot talk about, but maths (the only true science) can : Those are 0 and infinity.

We can map, on the level of mind what happens with enlightenment - I'm only speculating, but I see no real fault to doubt my reasoning:

 

My goal is to represent the entire enlightenment journey with mathematical formula that will prove even to the thickest mind/Ego that it should forego a journey to find their true nature.

 

When one trully becomes aware they are just awareness, this is when you reach being 0, from appearantly being something between 0 and infinity.

Now that you truly are 0, you have no other choice, but to float on top of everything, just like you've always done and even be aware of infinity, because you are THAT light. Since you are 0, you not only merge with it, you are it, because there is nothing else. There is only the numbers 1,2,3,4…. Only they are supposedly real, but with enlightenment we see that only 0 and infinity are real and the numbers 1,2,3… are illusions, caused by the reality of 0 and infinity, they are the play of life, the finite numbers. 0 AND infinity(God)? But that's two!

Infinity + 0 = Infinity = 100% = 1 whole = Non Duality = You, because ISNESS. If you are more than 0, you cannot merge with everything, become everything, reach samadhi and BE GOD - God is not nothing, God is Everything.

The experience of Ego is also part of God, part of Everything and I can see how as long as I take myself to be a thing, I will only be apparent PART of everything and will be impossible for me to merge with it. It's a finite number.

What do you think? I just love maths, next is experience, but you must agree, there needs to be something that will be helpful to ultra logical people to begin their journey and reach what @zazed   claims to have "reached". I do aknowledge that you can be the truth but are not saying the truth intellectually perfectly, which is understandable, because the truth cannot be expressed in words and also the real @zazed is not typing here, he is just observing his Ego type just like me and everyone else, because we all are 0 already, we just don't know it yet, well I don't, many of you have probably already reached this state of knowing called Enlightenment. I'm a 0 that has merged into an Ego, because maybe I think of it as my everything, but I am aware of other things as well and know for a fact my Ego is not everything, it is not God

My attempt is to do it with maths, which is far stronger than words. I also aknowledge that this is not experiential truth, but an intellectual truth is also something that I hold valuable and, again, I want to stress that people with ultra logical minds need to be nudged towards the experiential truth through logic. They won't listen to something else. If we want true Enlightenment and the end of suffering for All human beings, not just for ourselves, we need to think of new things and not only be selfish and think about ourselves! This is counter spiritual  

 

TLDR:

You are nothing (awareness, 0), God is everything(infinity) - Awareness merges with God automatically, we have NonDuality, the only reality. You merge with God and from this standpoint you've always been that, you were just taking yourself to be a number between 0 and infinity for the lols?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Dodoster

[zazed]

2 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

'The moon and the stars, revolve within me, the sun rises within me.'

This is my experience. This body is watching the sun rise, but the fact it is the sun, and that it is rising, is a fact known by my brain.
Consciousness is aware of this happening, but it is happening in my thoughts. As such the sun is rising  within me.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

People like Ramtirth have expounded upto cosmic-body. The endless boundaries of the universe are now their boundaries, so they will experience all revolvings within themselves. Such an individual can say, 'I see the world being created and being destroyed, I see the moon and stars taking births and dying.'

This is not my experience. It's also a bit to hocus pocus for me. In a sense it is true. If i imagine me expanding my cosmic-body in my thoughts, i will be aware of this, and it will be true to my consciousness, like everything else it is aware of.
My experience is much simpler... Perhaps incomplete.

[WelcometoReality]

58 minutes ago, zazed said:

The thought is real, the tree is real, the ground is real. None of these are a self however, they are just reality.
The brain is able to make these distinctions thanks to study and learning.

Consciousness is aware of all of the above.

Is the tree really a tree? Is the ground really the ground? Is there really any separation between them without mind labelling them tree and ground?

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, zazed said:

This is my experience. This body is watching the sun rise

In your experience , you are separate from the sun. An enlightened person becomes whole universe . Drop merges into the sea.

[SOUL]

Awareness is aware of  being aware.and in being aware of it's awareness the manifest exists so that the observer can observe itself.

Which is why the enlightenment path is one where we are focusing our temporal observer on the infinite observer because through that we are realizing awareness is aware of being aware through the manifest to enlighten it.

[Dodo]

Following my previous post - The Halo is the form of a 0 and is on top of the Body *- that may just be a symbol for what I just said - awareness, 0, no self realized.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Dodoster

[zazed]

10 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

Is the tree really a tree? Is the ground really the ground? Is there really any separation between them without mind labelling them tree and ground?

Not to you as consciousness. It's kind of irrelevant, because you can only see the brain-interpreted tree.
You can never see the tree as it truly is. The concept of trunk, leaves, tree are thought in school, consciousness does not know about them.
A baby when watching a tree, knows nothing, it doesn't even know it's green (because it hasn't been thought the names of colors).
But it still perceives something right? What exactly and how?

 

8 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

In your experience , you are separate from the sun. An enlightened person becomes whole universe . Drop merges into the sea.

The body watches the sun rise, it has eyes. Consciousness watches the sun rise within the thoughts of the body. In this way you are one with the sun, more or less. An enlightened person does not really care about the exact definition of the external universe.

You are not separate from the sun when you are seeing it. When not seeing it it does not exist.
This body is not the sun, because that would be ridiculous. 

You clearly follow a certain school, and you truly believe it all. Which is fine. It not inherently wrong, but i think you are literally interpreting things meant as metaphor (perhaps details lost over the ages).
I believe nothing, i only see what i can see and know, and i read a lot and assimilate what is useful.
I'm fairly certain I've been able to be consciousness more and more, but i might be in some kind of self-deluded mental state, which is probably more likely, but honestly does it even matter?

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, zazed said:

This body is not the sun, because that would be ridiculous.

If you try to understand through logic, you will find it ridiculous. Cosmic consciousness contains both body of enlightened master, sun and entire universe.

4 minutes ago, zazed said:

You clearly follow a certain school

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" , I can give quotes from many other enlightened persons.