Help them... but not too much... cuz they'll stop paying

[ivankiss]

Haha!

This just became super obvious to me.

Have you seen this? Have you experienced this?

It's everywhere.

No one truly wants to help nobody.

Cuz that would make us all equal, eventually.

And there's no fat juicy profit there.

God damnit. The game is so rigged it's not even funny anymore.

Tell you what though... feels so fucking good to peel off these remaining layers of illusion.

Life is so much brighter without foolishly believing that people have your best interest in mind.

Edited May 18 by ivankiss

[Leo Gura]

It's a real mindfuck when you realize that if the police actually stopped all the crime they'd be out of a job, so crime can never actually end.

Same for war.

[puporing]

I can help you wake up and return to heaven, but almost nobody seem to want that even for free. People want dream stuff and so they keep coming back here for more dream stuff. I can't help much with that other than if someone is having an emergency, as I struggle with this currently.

But at least for me once I reached a certain level this world isn't very attractive even from what you call a "selfish perspective". I am attracted to like beings but there's hardly any here right now. The only attraction for me is to try to heal it while I'm still here. Coz I'm still gonna be witnessing all the bad shit going on with or without a body. 

Edited May 18 by puporing

[UnbornTao]

Is that true or a perspective you've adopted? Haven't you experienced wanting to help someone? Ever helped your grandma set up her phone?

You fail to acknowledge that some people might want to make positive contributions to others, whether it is a word of acknowledgement, emotional support, or something else entirely.

A teacher may genuinely want her students to learn while at the same time she's paid to do so. Even if the child doesn't learn much, she could still go through the motions rather than insisting on teaching.

Edited May 24 by UnbornTao

[mmKay]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a real mindfuck when you realize that if the police actually stopped all the crime they'd be out of a job, so crime can never actually end.

Same for war.

Imagine a civilization so advanced that policing is not required. What would that look like ? 🤔

[Butters]

23 minutes ago, mmKay said:

Imagine a civilization so advanced that policing is not required. What would that look like ? 🤔

I doubt that's even desirable. Not everyone can be a millionaire entrepreneur, society would break. Not everyone can be a saint. You need diversity in as many ways as possible. 

[mmKay]

@Butters think in terms of an entire new intelligent, higher consciousness species.

But it's interesting to imagine what that would look like for humanity too. I think being able to live and strive without policing is the golden standard of what a species' society strives towards development wise in the very long term.

Honestly I don't even think if we would be there in 40 generations ( 1000 years )

Neale donald walsch describes a society  along these lines in his 4th Coversations with Good book, in case you have only read the trilogy

 

Quote

ChatGPT

Here's list of the characteristics of a society with higher moral and cognitive development as described by Neale Donald Walsch in "Conversations with God, Book 4: Awaken the Species":

 

Interconnectedness and Oneness: Recognizing that all life is interconnected, leading to behaviors and systems that respect and honor this unity. Actions are taken with awareness of their impact on the whole.

Economic Systems Based on Sharing and Abundance: Economic systems designed around principles of sharing, abundance, and sustainability. Basic needs of all individuals are met.

Collaborative Governance: Inclusive, transparent, and accountable decision-making processes that prioritize the common good. Community participation in governance is encouraged.

Cooperation over Competition: Valuing cooperation and collaboration over competition. Teamwork and mutual support are foundational principles.

Love and Compassion: Love and empathy are the guiding principles in all interactions, fostering a society based on kindness, understanding, and mutual support.

Sustainability and Harmony with Nature: Living in balance with the environment, ensuring that human activities are sustainable and in harmony with the natural world. Resource use is responsible and conservation is prioritized.

Peace and Nonviolence: Resolving conflicts through peaceful means and maintaining a society free from violence. Nonviolent communication and conflict resolution are fundamental practices.

Equality and Justice: Creating systems that ensure fairness, equity, and justice for all members of society. Discrimination and prejudice are eradicated, and everyone has equal opportunities.

Spiritual Awareness: Widespread recognition of the spiritual dimension of life, contributing to a sense of purpose and meaning. Spiritual growth and exploration are encouraged.

Advanced Communication and Understanding: Enhanced cognitive and communicative abilities lead to deeper understanding and empathy among individuals. This includes heightened intuition and emotional intelligence.

Innovation and Creativity: Valuing and encouraging creativity and innovation to solve problems and improve the quality of life. Artistic and scientific pursuits are supported and celebrated.

Holistic Well-being: A comprehensive approach to health that includes physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being. Preventative care and natural healing practices are integrated into healthcare.

Education and Lifelong Learning: Emphasizing education that nurtures critical thinking, creativity, and personal growth. Lifelong learning is encouraged and supported.

Holistic Health and Wellness: Health practices that encompass all aspects of well-being, including mental, emotional, and spiritual health. A balanced lifestyle is promoted.

Joy and Celebration: Living with a sense of joy, gratitude, and celebration. Community festivities and personal fulfillment are integral to life.

Transparency and Trust: Building trust through transparency in governance and personal interactions. Open communication and honesty are highly valued.

Personal Empowerment and Responsibility: Empowering individuals to take responsibility for their own lives and contribute positively to society. Personal accountability and agency are emphasized.

Integration of Technology and Humanity: Using technology to enhance human life while respecting and promoting human values and well-being. Ethical considerations guide technological development.

Diversity and Inclusion: Celebrating diversity in all forms and ensuring inclusivity in all aspects of society. Different cultures, beliefs, and lifestyles are respected and valued.

Global Perspective: Acting with a global consciousness, understanding the impact of actions on the world as a whole. Commitment to global well-being and the betterment of all humanity.

Inner Peace and Mindfulness: Cultivating inner peace through practices like meditation and mindfulness. Inner tranquility is reflected in outer harmony.

Ethical Consumption and Production: Guided by ethical considerations in consumption and production, ensuring fairness and sustainability. Products are made and consumed responsibly.

Intergenerational Wisdom and Connection: Strong connections between generations, with mutual respect and learning. Elders’ wisdom and youth’s innovation are both valued.

Emotional Intelligence and Resilience: High emotional intelligence and the ability to manage emotions constructively. Resilience is fostered to navigate challenges effectively.

Artistic Expression and Cultural Flourishing: The arts are vital expressions of the human spirit and are integral to community life. Cultural activities and artistic expressions are widely supported.

Global Cooperation and Peacebuilding: Nations and communities work together to promote peace and understanding. International diplomacy and conflict resolution are prioritized.

Technological Advancement with Ethical Oversight: Technological innovation pursued with careful ethical oversight to ensure benefits for humanity and prevent harm.

Community and Social Bonds: Strong social bonds and a sense of community. Active participation in community life fosters belonging and mutual support.

Balanced Life and Work: Prioritizing work-life balance to allow meaningful work and personal time. Leisure and recreation are seen as essential to a fulfilling life.

Adaptive and Evolving Systems: Social, economic, and political systems are adaptive and responsive to changing needs. Continuous improvement and innovation are encouraged.

Respect for Autonomy and Diversity of Thought: Respecting individual autonomy and diverse viewpoints. Different perspectives and approaches to life are appreciated.

Focus on Happiness and Well-being: Measuring societal success by the happiness and well-being of its members rather than purely economic metrics. Policies aim to enhance quality of life.

Integrated Living Spaces: Designing urban and rural spaces to integrate nature, promote community, and facilitate sustainable living. Green spaces and communal areas are prioritized.

Support for Vulnerable Populations: Special attention to supporting vulnerable and marginalized populations. Ensuring everyone has the opportunity to thrive.

Cultural Exchange and Global Awareness: Promoting global awareness and understanding through vibrant cultural exchange. Travel and cultural immersion are encouraged.

 

Edited May 18 by mmKay

[The Renaissance Man]

@ivankiss Are you talking about services you pay from people (for example courses, life coaching, technicians?) or even more broadly?

When I was doing personal training this matter was very stressful. I felt that if I taught everything I knew people would eventually create their own programs. I even had to change the program even when unnecessary. And the same was for making videos and marketing. But it wasn't like I didn't want to help. Not at all.

This dissonance stressed me the fuck out of me. I did my best to actually make the client progress as best as possible, but I always had to add a small degree of "confusion" so he didn't become independent.

But maybe this was a projection. I was the first one to hire a coach just to learn, and after a couple months do the same thing by myself. Not everybody is like that though.

[Hojo]

@mmKay

I believe that in a world where crime stopped existing the police would still be there and they would have to start artificially creating criminals. It would do this for as long as the citizens allowed it as the police is an entity and has ego and wont just dissapear. Eventually it will get too far the citizen will have to fight it and kill it.

The same with government.If crime is opposite of police I think problems are the opposite of government. I believe government artificially creates problems to solve when there are none, or pretends to solve the ones we have but are just covering it up, this will ensure we need even more stronger governing processes in the future.

In a world without crime we would exist in a world without government and we can wake up every morning with 0 ego and live how we are going to live in heaven. We can explore the world with 0 barriers but we sacrifice alot without government and go back to smaller tribes.

We have alot of infrastructure and could make it work tho.

 

Edited May 18 by Hojo

[ivankiss]

13 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Is that true or an assumption or conclusion you've reached? 

It is true from a limited point of view, of course. Not absolutely. 

However, I'd say many can relate.

13 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Haven't you genuinely experienced wanting to help someone? 

Yes. But then I became even more truthful with myself and understood how it's really all just about me. Even if disguised as if it is about someone else.

13 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

You fail to acknowledge that some people might want to make positive contributions

In this thread, maybe, yes. Not in general.

Obviously, the post is incredibly one - sided. That's why it's potent. And funny.

13 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

A teacher might genuinely want for her students to learn

Yes. Also, capitalize on them. Manipulate and shape them against their will. Super selfish shit.

9 hours ago, The Renaissance Man said:

Are you talking about services you pay from people (for example courses, life coaching, technicians?)

Yes.

9 hours ago, The Renaissance Man said:

or even more broadly?

Yes.

[Ishanga]

In the End all actions (I am helping my Grandma set up her phone), I am doing it because it is pleasing to me, there is a certain sort of pleasure associated with it, not helping Her causes the opposite affect, there is a sort of pain or suffering associated with it, same with dealing with your Kids, your spouse your co workers and so on, but when You see others as yourself, yourself as others, then it just happens naturally, there is no joy or pleasure associated with it, because when in that state your already Joyful and quite intensely, so when external stimuli in search for joy/happiness ends then service ends, and True giving begins, this is the path of Devotion, which means being Devoid of Self...

Now for normal folks, helping Your GrandMa makes You feel good, its a win win, but when You use others to gain something for yourself, you feel good at the expense of others, this win lose, your a narcissist now, and this is becoming all too common!

Edited May 18 by Ishanga

[ivankiss]

@Ishanga Pretty much spot on, yes.

[ivankiss]

Oh, and btw, what you're paying with is not necessarily cash. It could be as simple as attention. Affection, time, effort.

Someone is getting something out of it, one way or the other. No matter how in denial.

Trust me.

[UnbornTao]

Even if it's about you in the end, the help was provided and another got something out of it, as you say. It is still selfish as it promotes one's self-agenda, even when your agenda includes another's wellbeing. So, call it a more intelligent collective survival. Helping doesn't have to take away from either party involved. Essentially, your approach here is "How do I avoid losing?"

It's not either them or you exclusively, although many may act from that disposition. Relationship is about two people. It'd be useful to distinguish between competing and non-competing, or cooperative, types of relating.

About teaching, it is itself a manipulation. It involves moving students into a new experience and understanding, and helping them see something they didn't see before.

Edited May 24 by UnbornTao

[jimwell]

On 5/18/2024 at 10:07 AM, puporing said:

But at least for me once I reached a certain level this world isn't very attractive even from what you call a "selfish perspective".

Would you mind explaining that? I'm curious about what you mean exactly by that. I would appreciate a few examples.

I see variety of shitpiles in the world and often feel disappointed. When I look at my own life, I see imperfections and disappointments. It seems life is inherently difficult and unsatisfying.

I came back from my spiritual walk and run, and the entire experience felt very different from "real" life. The entire time, I saw beauty, sacredness, and mystery. And I felt love, excitement, and satisfaction. I felt grateful I was born and alive.

But now after a few hours of staying at home, the anxieties, disappointments, and dissatisfactions are starting to resurface.  

[puporing]

9 hours ago, jimwell said:

Would you mind explaining that? I'm curious about what you mean exactly by that. I would appreciate a few examples.

Sure, I can explain based on what generally people value here:

Intimate Relationships

Tried that, due to gaps in consciousness I always end up being someone's "free therapist" or punching bag, getting tricked that they might have basic integrity. Cannot find anyone that understands Love. People generally want to "imprison you" or use you as some "thing" to show off, and put you into a box with a "specific role" in mind, look a certain way, talk a certain way, and if you deviate from that all hell gets loose (generally). And those who are already in "relationships" don't generally give a fk about everyone else that they might come across. It's like other people just don't exist anymore. Same is true with "family systems", if you're not part of someone's family you don't exist to them very much nor do they give a fk about you.

Why do people even want babies? Do they even consider how painful that process is for the mother? And how it basically enslaves them? Usually no. They just take for granted someone with ovaries should have babies, like some kinda biological incubator. So imagine being boxed into this thing that most people think this is what you're good for and only what you're good for.

Families

I have no true families I can hardly avoid my biological parents, who are similar to the above, try to box me into something they want of me and most likely transphobic.

Work

So far I have not had a single job where someone in position of power doesn't try to manipulate, abuse, take advantage of me. If you're a biological woman most people in position of power will never promote you or give you your fair pay for your abilities. They will pay you the lowest of the low because they think you don't know better as a "woman". And when I tried to be self employed, I still run into bad people like certain customers who will trash your stuff on purpose, business "partners" like Airbnb trying to get out of paying you damages, other people that might be in the picture of your business constantly trying to screw you over and steal from you and you have very limited ways to fight back that don't require lots of money. 

Spirituality

Have not met a single person of my equal yet, I am lucky just to not be kicked out of spiritual communities. What that means is basically you have no one to relate to in this world and that's not exactly an optimal situation.

9 hours ago, jimwell said:

I came back from my spiritual walk and run, and the entire experience felt very different from "real" life. The entire time, I saw beauty, sacredness, and mystery. And I felt love, excitement, and satisfaction. I felt grateful I was born and alive.

Have you found any Light yet? There's much Light to uncover which leads you back to Heaven.

 

Edited May 27 by puporing

[Miguel1]

@puporing

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Makes me feel less lonely, as I have struggled with these thoughts pretty much my whole adult life. Increasingly so every year, since I keep developing myself, my consciousness, integrity and Love.

I resonated with everything, except perhaps spirituality (unless we are talking solely real-life meetings here).

[puporing]

@Miguel1 Thank you I appreciate that. 

Well it won't be true for you anymore coz if you reached where I am (one day) there'd now be 2 instead of 1, lol.

Edited May 26 by puporing

[Miguel1]

43 minutes ago, puporing said:

@Miguel1 Thank you I appreciate that. 

Well it won't be true for you anymore coz if you reached where I am (one day) there'd now be 2 instead of 1, lol.

No, spiritually it doesn't sound like I am anywhere near your level. To be frank, it is not even my #1 priority right now.

But nonetheless, I am more conscious than most people walking in the streets.

[puporing]

17 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

No, spiritually it doesn't sound like I am anywhere near your level. To be frank, it is not even my #1 priority right now.

But nonetheless, I am more conscious than most people walking in the streets.

It can't be forced. So long as someone finds this world attractive (as opposed to painful), they will not reach heaven I think, they are polar opposites. Even someone like me who did find it painful was tough to reach here, the ego dissolution process isn't easy and can feel "gut wrenching" at times. But there was enough Love from heaven that pulled me through. You could say this was the only place I could find my "equal" so it had to be the case I find it.

Edited May 27 by puporing