UN admits civilian casualities in Gaza are close to HALF of what it thought

[Merkabah Star]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

And won't solve anything other than radicalizing the Israeli society, rather than to go to an elections, get rid of Netanyahu and go slowely back to the much more peacful and hopeful society before Netanyahu turned leftism into a disease. Of course it will be harder now after what happened.

All Israelis are to blame for Gaza. Your government is a reflection of you. It’s obvious by the reactions of Israelis on this forum. 

[Nivsch]

11 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

All Israelis are to blame for Gaza. Your government is a reflection of you. It’s obvious by the reactions of Israelis on this forum. 

Is your current reaction different than the reactions you see as unfair, narrow viewed or demonizing?

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

11 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

What is best for Gazans and Israelis is that right wing people including Bibi are punished and replaced with more liberal green people.

Yes but only Israelis can decide this and an arrest warrent from outside will only make him more popular inside.

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[zazen]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Yes but only Israelis can decide this and an arrest warrent from outside will only make him more popular inside.

If a big portion of Israelis support Bibi or voted his government in would that justify collective punishment? Should the many suffer for what the few do? This is the logic used to justify what Israel does in Gaza because of Hamas.

Even if not a single person died, I think we forget just what it means to lose not only your home but your entire neighbourhood or town. People feel violated when they lose an item or get robbed, imagine your home - neighbourhood - town. A lot of these people were already refugees now made refugees twice in a life time.

That is a crime and stain against humanity regardless of the deaths. To top it off Israel denies these people appropriate aid access or as we’ve seen in one of the most militarized countries the IDF stands by or doesn’t prosecute settlers blocking / destroying aid.
 

To make a place of 2 million people homeless and inhabitable through crop destruction, restrict aid to these same people and then make them run around like a mouse in a maze by initiating new operations to wherever they move to for safety (Rafah) is despicable and is why the world is mad at Israel - before we even get to deaths.

 

But hardcore Zionists (not you in particular) will claim the death count being half or the numbers from Hamas not accurate as if it’s a victory - it’s not the win they think it is and only makes them come across worse in fact.

Edited May 17 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Is your current reaction different than the reactions you see as unfair, narrow viewed or demonizing?

His point is that just like Israelis called all Gazans "responsible" for the Hamas attack, you can also flip the switch and say "All Israelis are responsible for the atrocities that lead up to the Hamas attack".

It is a flawed logic that just dehumanizes people and rationalizes collective punishment.

I am sure that just like many Israelis find all Gazans responsible and complicit, many Gazans found those Israelis that Hamas killed responsible and complicit.

I know you personally do not find all Gazans complicit but I was referring to the larger phenomenon here.

If someone thinks  Gazans at large are any more guilty than the  Israeli civilians at large that Hamas killed, then they are delusional and biased.

Both sides are equally innocent (or guilty however you wanna see it).

Edited May 17 by Karmadhi

[Merkabah Star]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Is your current reaction different than the reactions you see as unfair, narrow viewed or demonizing?

What i said is the same logic Israelis use about Gaza. 

Doesn’t feel great when someone says it about you. 

 

[Merkabah Star]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I know you personally do not find all Gazans complicit but I was referring to the larger phenomenon here.

They do, because people and children were cheering on the streets of Gaza after the attack. 

[Nivsch]

24 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

What i said is the same logic Israelis use about Gaza. 

Doesn’t feel great when someone says it about you. 

But you did it too.

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi IDF came to Gaza to kill hamas only after did far reaching steps (including billion dollar fences) for years to avoid this war, wereas hamas came here to kill as many civilians as it can. As much as I think this war is done badly, the context is very different and this "symmetry" game is untrue.

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi IDF came to Gaza to kill hamas only after did far reaching steps (including billion dollar fences) for years to avoid this war, wereas hamas came here to kill as many civilians as it can. As much as I think this war is done badly, the context is very different and this "symmetry" game is untrue.

If you can see that Israel has been pushed to its limit to act this way, you can surely see how Hamas are pushed to their limit to act how they did on October 7th.  If Israeli settlers one day killed 1'000 Palestinians would that justify making 2 million Israeli's homeless and restricting aid to them?

If you speak of context and symmetry there is a clear asymmetry in who has more power in this situation and what they choose to do with that power. Israeli's are given all the context they need to justify this war, but Palestinians aren't from the Zionist side - as if Hamas's sole reason for existence is to kill as many Israeli Jews as possible - as if their existence isn't fuelled by the context of occupation and oppression of Palestinians.

[zazen]

 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

pushed to their limit to act how they did on October 7th

What caused them to start the second intifada in 2000 right after four different signed agreements between Israelis and Palestinians in the 90's and a negotiation process two months before that?

2 hours ago, zazen said:

If Israeli settlers one day killed 1'000 Palestinians would that justify making 2 million Israeli's homeless and restricting aid to them?

I agreed this war is managed badly and for the honesty western militaries as a whole don't know how to deal efficiently with guerilla as we have seen from previous years.

2 hours ago, zazen said:

as if their existence isn't fuelled by the context of occupation and oppression of Palestinians.

I agree about the problematic way Israel choose to manage the situation in West Bank. I think though that the beginning of the settlements project is understandable as I explained my thinking before about the dimensions of the WB in front of the central Israeli narrow corridor, but apart from this both sides are equally to blame in this dynamics and Israel has at least half of the responsibility.

Brutal terror attacks though were way before 1967, so west bank is merely an another parameter but not the root of the terror motivation.

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

20 hours ago, Yimpa said:

What if war is what‘s best for the both of them as a key aspect of their overall developments? 

Yes, an interesting point, if Israelis and Palestinians will learn from that trap as the principle Leo said in his video.

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[Nilsi]

Disgusting rhetoric. What's your point here?

The following are the total casualties for both sides (2008-2024):

• Total Palestinians killed: Over 38,278
• Total Israelis killed: Approximately 1,248

This is a ratio of over 30:1. No matter how "off" the numbers are, this clearly shows who is the oppressor and who the oppressed.

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Disgusting rhetoric. What's your point here?

The following are the total casualties for both sides (2008-2024):

• Total Palestinians killed: Over 38,278
• Total Israelis killed: Approximately 1,248

This is a ratio of over 30:1. No matter how "off" the numbers are, this clearly shows who is the oppressor and who the oppressed.

This is your head of government btw:

We're at a point where anything short of aggressively revolting against your government should be considered participation in these disgusting crimes against humanity, yet you have nothing better to do than argue over how many tens of thousands of innocent civilians your government has killed since October 7th? This is way past the obedience of authority and "banality of evil" we saw in Nazi Germany. This is just blatant participation and backing of genocide.

[Nivsch]

@Nilsi According to that narrow logic then the European coalition and US are also oppressors with even worse ratios.

Edited May 18 by Nivsch

[Nilsi]

Just now, Nivsch said:

@Nilsi According to that narrow logic then the Europeen coalition and US are also oppressors with even worse ratios.

 

In many ways they are. It's just that they are a lot more subtle about it, so the common person can, to some extent, be given more slack for their ignorance on these issues.

[Nilsi]

3 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

In many ways they are. It's just that they are a lot more subtle about it, so the common person can, to some extent, be given more slack for their ignorance on these issues.

I claim even Hitler was more subtle and humane in his rhetoric than fucking Benjamin Netanyahu. Evoking God and the fucking Bible? I mean, come on... you couldn't make up something more obviously bigoted if you tried.

[Nivsch]

Sorry but I cannot play this game. What western militaries caused to innocent people are not even 0.1% of the severity of what The Nazi regime has done in amounts, methods, level of freedom of civilians and the lingering of the suffering. If you have others and earthly analogies add them.

Edited May 18 by Nivsch

[Nilsi]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Sorry but I cannot play this game. What western militaries caused to innocent people are not even 0.1% of the severity of what The Nazi regime has done in amounts, methods and the lingering of the suffering. If you have earthly analogies we can discuss.

I apologize for the insensitive analogy; I hadn't considered that this could be a trigger when the Hitler comparison came to mind. Anyway, at no point did I trivialize the evils of the Nazi regime; that just wasn't relevant to the argument I was trying to make.