What's the quickest way to enlightenment?

[James Swartz]

On 11/05/2024 at 0:59 AM, UnbornTao said:

Is that true or not? That's the key question to ask oneself. It seems to me you're referring to a distinction within awareness that may be useful to make but this is made by you. In any case, I'd say that no matter what answers or system of belief we come up with in this regard, whether true or not, in the end they won't be the direct consciousness we're after. External sources can point out a new possibility, inspire, or encourage you; however, when it comes down to it, the reality is that you must stand on your own consciousness of the matter, otherwise it remains hearsay, an idea adopted by you.

Not to be pedant, but by holding the matter as subject to process, you're looking into the relative, and these are out of the picture when it comes to the absolute. So, quick is too indirect. The only way isn't a way and it is direct; it is you grasping your nature now. As Dogen put it––if not now, when? This is what it boils down to. The best you can do is contemplate--being at the bus stop when the bus arrives.

Absolutely! It also helps to have an impersonal source of well-vetted Self knowledge like Vedanta.

[James Swartz]

On 11/05/2024 at 0:24 AM, Mu_ said:

There isn't a fastest way.  What are you interested in now, like truly.  Pursue that.

Yes. The problem with that solution is that most people don't know that their desires, beliefs and opinions are crap. Vedanta is the long con. It sets up the state of play and patiently walks qualified inquirers through the minefield of the so-called spiritual world. It works but it's not for everyone.

[James Swartz]

On 11/05/2024 at 0:59 AM, UnbornTao said:

Is that true or not? That's the key question to ask oneself. It seems to me you're referring to a distinction within awareness that may be useful to make but this is made by you. In any case, I'd say that no matter what answers or system of belief we come up with in this regard, whether true or not, in the end they won't be the direct consciousness we're after. External sources can point out a new possibility, inspire, or encourage you; however, when it comes down to it, the reality is that you must stand on your own consciousness of the matter, otherwise it remains hearsay, an idea adopted by you.

Not to be pedant, but by holding the matter as subject to process, you're looking into the relative, and these are out of the picture when it comes to the absolute. So, quick is too indirect. The only way isn't a way and it is direct; it is you grasping your nature now. As Dogen put it––if not now, when? This is what it boils down to. The best you can do is contemplating--being at the bus stop when the bus arrives.

Yes, or in other words: enlightenment is (1) perfect satisfaction with oneself, as one conceives it, and (2) perfect satisfaction with the world as it is. The rest is just fancy talk.

[Ishanga]

1 minute ago, James Swartz said:

Yes. The problem with that solution is that most people don't know that their desires, beliefs and opinions are crap. Vedanta is the long con. It sets up the state of play and patiently walks qualified inquirers through the minefield of the so-called spiritual world. It works but it's not for everyone.

Yes exactly, ppl are interested in all sorts of stupid and destructive things, you want them to pursue that? In the Toronto area there was just a bust of Sexually explicit child porn material, something like 64 ppl were arrested, someone had something like 30 terabits of images and videos in their possession, you think ppl pursuing this sort of thing is fine? 

People misinterpret the path as what it is all about, the path is just the path, the way to get there without making all the mistakes and making it possible to do it within this lifetime, rather than many, but its not the primary of what it is all about, ppl get hung up on the how too much...

[UnbornTao]

10 minutes ago, James Swartz said:

Yes, or in other words: enlightenment is (1) perfect satisfaction with oneself, as one conceives it, and (2) perfect satisfaction with the world as it is. The rest is just fancy talk.

I hold it as becoming directly conscious of the true nature of you, other, existence, etc.

[Breakingthewall]

47 minutes ago, James Swartz said:

Yes, or in other words: enlightenment is (1) perfect satisfaction with oneself, as one conceives it, and (2) perfect satisfaction with the world as it is. The rest is just fancy talk.

I wouldn't say that this is enlightenment. What you mentioned could be the consequences of enlightenment but not enlightenment itself. It is to break totally the illusion of this life and become totally conscious of your true nature, that you are the unfathomable abyss that exists and realize how you are creating this moment and be aware of all it's depth . Then you see clearly through life and death, and you identify with existence. It is a specific mystical opening that if it occurs many times begins to be your natural state of being and your understanding of this experience deepens.

Edited May 12, 2024 by Breakingthewall

[James123]

On 5/11/2024 at 1:11 AM, James Swartz said:

Discriminate between the two basic existential categories, which are (1) a conscious subject, which cannot be objectified, and (2) "the field," which is the objects, i.e. experiences that present themselves to the conscious subject.

The conscious subject is always present and doesn't change, whereas the "field" is in a state of constant flux.

Discriminating the subject from the field is "enlightenment," which is to say freeing the subject from its apparent attachment to the objects in the field...thoughts, feelings, people, desires, specific circumstances, etc.

Do you agree?

Enlightenment is simply being where you already are.

[Ishanga]

Just now, James123 said:

Enlightenment is simply being where you already are.

Yes but can one do it? Can You Realize and Experience what You already Are? One cannot simply make the statement and have it as an experience right off the bat, this is what I have a problem with with Top Level Down ppl that say, nothing has to be done, this is what You are, just be it! Its easier said than done, but obviously the world is not realizing they are what they already are which is Enlightened, if they were would the world have as much suffering as it has? Lets not say there is no Suffering, there is just as much if not more Suffering going on today than ever since the population is more than ever and ppl are out of touch with what is more than ever.

So that is why there are methods and paths, don't get crazy thinking the path is what it is, it just a path, the way to get to the Realization that You are already Enlightened and There...

[Mu_]

2 hours ago, James Swartz said:

Yes. The problem with that solution is that most people don't know that their desires, beliefs and opinions are crap. Vedanta is the long con. It sets up the state of play and patiently walks qualified inquirers through the minefield of the so-called spiritual world. It works but it's not for everyone.

There isnt a problem with the question to “You”. I’m not asking someone else, what do you want truely overall most the time?

[Mu_]

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

Yes exactly, ppl are interested in all sorts of stupid and destructive things, you want them to pursue that? In the Toronto area there was just a bust of Sexually explicit child porn material, something like 64 ppl were arrested, someone had something like 30 terabits of images and videos in their possession, you think ppl pursuing this sort of thing is fine? 

People misinterpret the path as what it is all about, the path is just the path, the way to get there without making all the mistakes and making it possible to do it within this lifetime, rather than many, but its not the primary of what it is all about, ppl get hung up on the how too much...

lol way to take my answer and find one of the worst possible things a super minority of people do that I’m for surely against and most people are as well.  Maybe I should qualify the answer to include that isn’t rapey or premeditating harm.  Also sometimes answers and questions are not meant for everyone. Anyways thanks for the reminder and chuckle. 

[Ishanga]

2 hours ago, Mu_ said:

lol way to take my answer and find one of the worst possible things a super minority of people do that I’m for surely against and most people are as well.  Maybe I should qualify the answer to include that isn’t rapey or premeditating harm.  Also sometimes answers and questions are not meant for everyone. Anyways thanks for the reminder and chuckle. 

Hi, I didn't mean to make like that, just using a simple example of ppl doing what they are interested in, by the way have You watched "Sound of Freedom" it came out recently, its about this stuff I mentioned, they say there are over a million children involved with this stuff, so its not so small and isolated, that sort of supply means there's a great need, its the same with drugs, the cartels in mexico are making more $$ now and shipping more cocaine than ever, why is that, because the need is there, so these are just two examples of things going on in the world, there is many many more, so just saying ppl don't need to go and do what they are interested in, they aren't conscious enough yet lol, I witness daily the consciousness level of normal everyday humans, they are not there yet for that sort  of drive to go for what they are interested in, they are interested in very low level things and some are not so healthy for them or the rest of us...

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, James123 said:

Enlightenment is simply being where you already are.

You are always what you are, but you wear a mask, this mask is this life and all its meaning, its temporal movement and its qualia. Taking off the mask and being the absolutely naked being and perceiving yourself as the unfathomable eternal, and clearly perceiving the nature of what you are, is not easy. There is a lot of deception to remove, until there is absolutely nothing defined or concrete left, and then you can expand to infinity. It is not something simple, obvious, easy. It is a difficult achievement

[Whitney Edwards]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You are always what you are, but you wear a mask, this mask is this life and all its meaning, its temporal movement and its qualia. Taking off the mask and being the absolutely naked being and perceiving yourself as the unfathomable eternal, and clearly perceiving the nature of what you are, is not easy. There is a lot of deception to remove, until there is absolutely nothing defined or concrete left, and then you can expand to infinity. It is not something simple, obvious, easy. It is a difficult achievement

We become enlightened by understanding our true self. 

 

[Ishanga]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You are always what you are, but you wear a mask, this mask is this life and all its meaning, its temporal movement and its qualia. Taking off the mask and being the absolutely naked being and perceiving yourself as the unfathomable eternal, and clearly perceiving the nature of what you are, is not easy. There is a lot of deception to remove, until there is absolutely nothing defined or concrete left, and then you can expand to infinity. It is not something simple, obvious, easy. It is a difficult achievement

Its difficult when its not in Realization and one is not Aware of it, its easy when one is in Realization of it and is Aware of it, all that have gone to this place of experience say the samething, suffering was needed but then not needed when Realized and such sayings, so its a paradox in some ways, Realization is key, how to get there is varied...

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

Its difficult when its not in Realization and one is not Aware of it, its easy when one is in Realization of it and is Aware of it, all that have gone to this place of experience say the samething, suffering was needed but then not needed when Realized and such sayings, so its a paradox in some ways, Realization is key, how to get there is varied...

Suffering is absolutely necessary, because to completely remove yourself from the superficial layer, let's call it the mask, deception, dream, requires an absolutely unbreakable will to break your experience, without reservation, almost to the level of a suicidal desire. I suppose there are also different cases, spontaneous, Ramana Maharshi, people like that, but the normal thing is that at a given moment you realize that your life, your human existence, is truly miserable shit that can only get worse, a trap terrible, a joke of the gods, and you make the decision to break up, without caring about the consequences.

Then you can open the apparent and see what is behind. Then the apparent closes again, but everything has changed, you have seen, although you cannot remember exactly what, your entire being has been rewired, the door was opened, the glas filled, the prodigal son returned.

achieving a new opening is easier, although still difficult, there is still a lot of confusion, but the determination is still strong and the suffering continues to exist 24/7, little by little, with each new opening, you as a reality are rewiring yourself, reconfiguring your energetic pattern, and your density is decreasing. 

The experience becomes increasingly transparent, and the focus on the present increases until it becomes total. Perception goes from being linear, seeing life as a temporary process, to profound, seeing existence as a vital energetic pattern that is now. At this point, the openings are easy and more or less normal, although they require deliberation. The experience continues to be the protagonist, chopping wood and carrying water, which can be scientific research, business, deep human relationships or anything else with real meaning.

At a given moment you realize something: the suffering has disappeared, completely. You go through life dancing, everything is colorful and there is no fear. There is confidence that things are as they should be. Even so, you would not like to have your arms amputated or sentenced to life imprisonment in a Russian prison, but everything has a cosmic, relative and necessary meaning. You are flowing, surfing the wave, in synchrony. 

Then, I guess there is or could be another stage, where you are absolutely out of the world, of the human movent. Maybe life leads you to that point by an accident, like ram Dass, just getting old, or by vocation. Then maybe you could perceive as deep as an human can, and be totally focused in mystical perception. Id say that in the future, many humans will reach that point 

[Inliytened1]

On 5/10/2024 at 5:11 PM, James Swartz said:

Discriminate between the two basic existential categories, which are (1) a conscious subject, which cannot be objectified, and (2) "the field," which is the objects, i.e. experiences that present themselves to the conscious subject.

The conscious subject is always present and doesn't change, whereas the "field" is in a state of constant flux.

Discriminating the subject from the field is "enlightenment," which is to say freeing the subject from its apparent attachment to the objects in the field...thoughts, feelings, people, desires, specific circumstances, etc.

Do you agree?

This seems like it would still leave a subject.  Enlightenment is the collapse of the subject/object duality.   Find this through self inquiry.  Inquire into what it is you think is the subject.  But the self/other is a duality - the subject should not be emphasized more than the object or the field as you call it.  The field could also free itself from the subject. 

Don't look at it as subject/object- look at it as self/other and then attempt to understand what self is.  Later you will find this is the answer to what other is as well.

Edited May 13, 2024 by Inliytened1

[strika]

Removing food, water, sleep (of course this would include having to rest instead, but without falling into deep sleep and losing the consciousness) and waste of sexual energy out of our lives, i think this would be enough for anyone to have God pour into their bubble of consciousness, or have God reveal itself within like a week, of course psychedelics are another option but they don't make the state permanent.

Edited May 13, 2024 by strika

[Inliytened1]

21 minutes ago, strika said:

Removing food, water, sleep (of course this would include having to rest instead, but without falling into deep sleep and losing the consciousness) and waste of sexual energy out of our lives, i think this would be enough for anyone to have God pour into their bubble of consciousness, or have God reveal itself within like a week, of course psychedelics are another option but they don't make the state permanent.

Suffering is an option.  Suffering can be from losing a loved one too - not just from deprivation of what is needed by the physical body - but Suffering of the mind.  This is far more powerful.   But where he was going was self inquiry.   He spoke of the subject/object duality  - but really this is the self/other duality.  To free yourself from other you must first determine that which the self is.  Then later other will be revealed as well.   Combine any sort of suffering with self enumeration and then you are cooking up enlightenment with gas.

Edited May 13, 2024 by Inliytened1

[strika]

40 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Suffering is an option.  Suffering can be from losing a loved one too - not just from deprivation of what is needed by the physical body - but Suffering of the mind.  This is far more powerful.   But where he was going was self inquiry.   He spoke of the subject/object duality  - but really this is the self/other duality.  To free yourself from other you must first determine that which the self is.  Then later other will be revealed as well.   Combine any sort of suffering with self enumeration and then you are cooking up enlightenment with gas.

My point wasn't that a person should suffer, i don't think a person will suffer if they go a week like that, my point was that when we stop indulging with physical reality that makes reality lighter which makes God more obvious, it won't physically hurt us or kill us, not for that period at least. Like for example a month ago i went 40 hours without food, water and sleep and God became pretty obvious, i was in that state of being merged with everything while at the same time still operating like a normal human and all, and that's only 40 hours, the more one goes the more obvious it becomes.

Edited May 13, 2024 by strika

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, strika said:

My point wasn't that a person should suffer, i don't think a person will suffer if they go a week like that, my point was that when we stop indulging with physical reality that makes reality lighter which makes God more obvious, it won't physically hurt us or kill us, not for that period at least. Like for example a month ago i went 40 hours without food, water and sleep and God became pretty obvious, i was in that state of being merged with everything while at the same time still operating like a normal human and all, and that's only 40 hours, the more one goes the more obvious it becomes.

Yes.  Look death in the eye in any way and God becomes pretty obvious.   Conceptualizing God makes God much more obscure.   The Truth is before your very eyes - there isn't a need to grasp it with the egoic mind.

Edited May 13, 2024 by Inliytened1