Is it my duty to defend my country?

[Something Funny]

I am curious if anyone here can provide a valid, meaningful argument for why I, as a citizen, have a duty to protect the country I was born in with my life.

[Nemra]

@Something Funny

I can certainly say that if you have a national identity, then you'll feel that you need to defend your country.

[Something Funny]

@Nemra yeah, I can understand that.

Here is some context about what I am asking:

There were some changes to the mobilisation law in Ukraine, and some of those are aimed at getting back people who left the country before / during war. 

Plenty of people seem to think that it is a right decision because men have a moral duty to go back and protect their country. 

I disagree with that. Unfortunately, whenever I ask such people why do they think that it's my obligation to go back to Ukraine and fight, they are not able to give me a good response that makes sense. So I thought that I should ask here.

 

[Nemra]

Imo, it's a bit like physical attraction. But I think they don't know that, and they think that everyone feels that way.

I can tell this by not having a national identity.

Most of them won't admit that it's just a feeling added to the stories that they have filled their minds with. But few can, which is still difficult.

Edited April 25 by Nemra

[Buck Edwards]

There will be no national identity in the future. 

[bebotalk]

On 25/04/2024 at 8:58 PM, Something Funny said:

I am curious if anyone here can provide a valid, meaningful argument for why I, as a citizen, have a duty to protect the country I was born in with my life.

Said country has provided a safe and stable place to live in. 

[Schizophonia]

It's only your life that matters, in fact, there is just your life.
If the state of your country is beneficial to you and the attacker wants to destroy it, or even wants to attack your culture, your loved ones and yourself in one way or another, well you probably better fight for your country.

On the other hand, if the government is against you for whatever reason (you are a more or less oppressed ethnic/religious minority, you are in the majority but your government is horrible anyway and you want to overthrow it, you are a regionalist/independenceist. ..) and the attackers do not want to rob you in the event of victory, perhaps your interest would be to let it happen or even join the "enemy".

It's just very multi-factorial and contextual actually.

Edited May 12 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

On 25/04/2024 at 10:37 PM, Nemra said:

Imo, it's a bit like physical attraction. But I think they don't know that, and they think that everyone feels that way.

I can tell this by not having a national identity.

Most of them won't admit that it's just a feeling added to the stories that they have filled their minds with. But few can, which is still difficult.

On 26/04/2024 at 6:52 PM, Buck Edwards said:

There will be no national identity in the future. 

One day we will all be equal and united   🌎 🏳️‍🌈🫃

 

 

 

 

AGAINST ALIENS INVADERS 

 

WAR WAR WAR

[Nemra]

 

6 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

AGAINST ALIENS INVADERS 

Sadly, I think it'll be that way.

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

One day we will all be equal and united

I wish.

I want so badly to be born into an advanced civilization that spans across galaxies, or at least the Milky Way Galaxy, like in Star Trek or Star Wars, although there are wars there.

[LordFall]

Ukrainian men are all doomed to die in this war. If it was an actual invader that could be pushed off perhaps if you identified more with the people and land that were being attacked than yourself then it would make logical sense for you to die for them. From my research of the conflict though it's based on extremely convoluted geopolitical games and being just a grunt on the front lines is basically suicide for both parties so to call that a duty seems pretty crazy to me. 

[BlueOak]

Picture that you've passed away.

Look back on your life and decide whether it was a life worth living. People considering this ahead of time, are doing themselves a favor. Then answer the question you asked.

Nobody is going to be able to tell you how you feel. I can put words in your head about saving Europe, defending your way of life, or that it's all geopolitical and a waste of life - because for me, all of those statements are true. What do you feel, though? Forget what others feel; what's going on inside yourself? Then you will have your answer.

I would never ask another man why I should risk my own life for something. Don't talk yourself into anything or let anyone else do so. War is hell, its ugly and leaves a lot of scars. If you go, don't let it be for land, some fictional buzzword concept, or because anyone else told you to.

I should also say there is no guarantee of victory here, its likely to hold because that's what the major backers of Ukraine want, a stalemate to stop Russia, but no guarantees. 

Edited May 13 by BlueOak

[DieFree]

If you benefited from public benefits in the country of your nationality, including the protections of the laws and health/educational benefits, then there may be an argument that you have a duty to that public especially if the "defending" includes defending against foreign invasions. 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

 

[TheAlchemist]

You didn't choose to be born in Ukraine (or wherever), so why should you be forced to give your life to it?

It is only through coercion (often social) and an identity that is regidly tied to a nationality that wars can still go on at the scale that they do. World wars don't happen through the masses voluntarily going to kill people, the whole war machine needs the national identity, demonization of the other, social stigma etc. at scale (which you have faced) to function.

Ultimately, it is a question of your own conscience and staying in integrity with it. If you are clear with yourself that going to war is madness and won't help the world move towards a better place, then it is much better to refuse, assuming you are ready to face the consequences of potentially being shamed or at the most extreme being physically forced or even killed for not complying.

Don't let anyone convince you to go just through shaming you or pressuring you, but if you truly can find a good argument that convinces you in a way that you can maintain self-integrity and peace with yourself and the world, then by all means go. Just don't let potential shame or threats be the reason. 

Edited May 13 by TheAlchemist

[Schizophonia]

On 12/05/2024 at 8:34 PM, Nemra said:

 

Sadly, I think it'll be that way.

I wish.

I want so badly to be born into an advanced civilization that spans across galaxies, or at least the Milky Way Galaxy, like in Star Trek or Star Wars, although there are wars there.

I just want a big house, 5 children and access to nature.

I leave you these space things ahah.

[bebotalk]

individualism is natural somewhat, but it's also cringe when taken to an extreme. humans are atoms and we rely on social networks and structures as much as being individuals. It can be strongly argued that nobody can survive without social networks or structures. one argument for this therefore is that one should give back to things one takes from.

Is it a duty? That depends. I can see why a person possibly should fight for one's country, and that without a country one literally wouldn't exist. 

Edited May 17 by bebotalk

[Nemra]

Some people's values don't entirely align with one's own society's values. It's difficult to know how much you should give back. Most people are brainwashed, so it's easy for them to give back.

Nobody owes one's society, and society doesn't owe anything to anybody, or the other way around.

[bebotalk]

People's views and attitudes are invariably shaped by their environment. That's just being human. It's just naive edgelords and teenagers who think they "know it all" that say we're not influenced by society. And what is brainwashing? Not all social norms are harmful and not all social influences are malign. Celebrating birthdays is a social norm, but few say it's harmful. is that brainwashing? 

 

 

[Nemra]

People celebrate their birthdays because they have been doing it since they were kids, which is different from knowing that it's pointless and doing it because you enjoy it. Either way, it's not harmful, unless you cut your finger while slicing up the cake. I bet people won't do it if they aren't encouraged and won't ever think about it, but not because they see it as pointless.

[bebotalk]

1 minute ago, Nemra said:

People celebrate their birthdays because they have been doing it since they were kids, which is different from knowing that it's pointless and doing it because you enjoy it. Either way, it's not harmful, unless you cut your finger while slicing up the cake. I bet people won't do it if they aren't encouraged and won't ever think about it, but not because they see it as pointless.

It's still a social norm that people don't need to to. it's not in our DNA to do such, and it's not like Jesus in the Gospels or Allah in the Quran said we should. this proves my point that not all social norms or "indoctrination" is necessarily harmful. We can't get away from societal or communal influence.