Humans are not apes (Humans are their own thing)

[Basman]

Humans and primates (chimps, gorillas, etc.) are closely related but ultimately different in my opinion. Humans are part of their own genus. It is just that our species of human is the only surviving species at the moment.

Humans, or homo sapiens, are extremely competitive and our complex social system and ability to create shared fictional myths (a social matrix) gives us the advantage over other animals. Our ability to create culture allows for cooperation across millions of individuals via shared identity based on fictional qualities, like nationality and institutions. Most social animals can only cooperate with other animals they personally are familiar with, I.E. their tribe/family. This is what makes humans unique.

People always say that chimps are our closest cousin which I find to be an erroneous statement. Yes, they are our closest living relative genetically but only because we killed every other species that would compete with us, including other species of human. Cave lions and wolves used to be everywhere but where eradicated wherever humans went, the former being driven to complete extinction, because the species are competitors with humans, specifically for territory and prey/livestock. Neanderthals are a great example of another species that was most likely in my opinion driven to extinction by humans because of the conflicting interest. Humans won due to superior numbers and strategy as a social species despite being individually weaker than a neanderthal human.

Point is, humans are extremely competitive and tend to kill their competition historically speaking. The fact that of all the species considered "primates", humans are the only generalist species. Arguably, the reason chimps have continued to survive despite of humans is because of how unlike us they are, I.E. a lack of conflicting interests. Everything that is like us, like neanderthals, where killed because "there can only be one" in our savage brains (and we rule the world as a result).

I'm not rejecting the notion that humans are not "lowly animals" by saying that we are not apes,  just that we are not apes specifically.

[LastThursday]

I don't know, a gorilla is not a chimp, is not a human. These biological categories are ultimately based on similarity. You could say that humans are the least similar in the group of apes, but they definitely have similarities in behaviour, form and genetics to other apes. From those similarities you can conclude that all apes had a common ancestor. 

It's also a matter of definition. The category of apes includes humans, so humans are apes.  You could just as easily make up a different category that excludes humans, but includes chimps and gorillas.

The story with Neanderthals is not just about extermination, humans nowadays (especially Europeans) have a small percentage of Neanderthal DNA, which means that humans also interbred with them, so some of us are partly Neanderthal. In any case Neanderthals were possibly going extinct due to climate change at the time.

Humans also kill by drastically altering habitat or passing on diseases or wiping out part of the food chain, i.e. incidentally. In that sense we're "out of place" in the ecosystem balance of the planet. But invasive species and the mass spawnings of locusts do the same sort of ecosystem damage, we're not that unique I suppose.

 

Edited April 24 by LastThursday

[Basman]

45 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

I don't know, a gorilla is not a chimp, is not a human. These biological categories are ultimately based on similarity. You could say that humans are the least similar in the group of apes, but they definitely have similarities in behaviour, form and genetics to other apes. From those similarities you can conclude that all apes had a common ancestor. 

It's also a matter of definition. The category of apes includes humans, so humans are apes.  You could just as easily make up a different category that excludes humans, but includes chimps and gorillas.

The story with Neanderthals is not just about extermination, humans nowadays (especially Europeans) have a small percentage of Neanderthal DNA, which means that humans also interbred with them, so some of us are partly Neanderthal. In any case Neanderthals were possibly going extinct due to climate change at the time.

Humans also kill by drastically altering habitat or passing on diseases or wiping out part of the food chain, i.e. incidentally. In that sense we're "out of place" in the ecosystem balance of the planet. But invasive species and the mass spawnings of locusts do the same sort of ecosystem damage, we're not that unique I suppose.

Apes and humans definitely have a common ancestor, no doubt about it. And they are our closest living relatives. But my point is that they have survived till now because of how unlike us they are. They are all specialist species that live in environments that humans don't tend to live in.

True, it is essentially just semantics whether or not humans are categorically apes but I do think that humans are such an outlier in the "primate" category that they are essentially a different family, just that there exists only a single species of human. Chimps have much more in common with gorillas, bonobos, etc. than they do with humans (or any other animal of the primate species).

Neanderthal extinction was definitely a mixture of factors. Apparently East-Asians have the most neanderthal DNA, so there was some interbreeding at place. But I still think human competition is what killed neanderthals, climate might have just expedited that process. There would be conflict of interest over prey animals and territory. That doesn't necessarily mean there was a war between the species but maybe humans where just better hunters.

[LastThursday]

I have to agree that humans are an extreme outlier as an ape. We are unique as an animal in general.

I think with Neanderthals (and probably with Denisovans) there was a messy dynamic with humans, some level of competition, some interbreeding and lots of other factors - maybe overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers. But the fact that humans migrated into Neanderthal territory and not the other way around is telling - they were simply more adaptable to new environments and that probably gave them the edge. Evolutionarily, you only need an edge over a long enough period to become the dominant organism, basically it's "survival of the fittest".

You're right that humans and chimps say, occupied different niches and so chimps survived. But humans overlapped with wolves for the same prey, and they ended up domesticating them - but no doubt wolf numbers are less as a result of humans.

It's a damn shame that there aren't more species of humans around, perhaps they'd keep us in check? But we'd probably keep them as pets, servants, or show them off in zoos or put them into ghettos, or force them into reservations, so it's probably just as well.

 

Edited April 24 by LastThursday

[ryoko]

Some group of apes forgot to evolve..

[Basman]

17 hours ago, LastThursday said:

It's a damn shame that there aren't more species of humans around, perhaps they'd keep us in check? But we'd probably keep them as pets, servants, or show them off in zoos or put them into ghettos, or force them into reservations, so it's probably just as well.

Genuinely, if Neanderthals existed to this day they be treated horribly. We already consider them subhuman from what we know of them archeologically.

17 hours ago, LastThursday said:

You're right that humans and chimps say, occupied different niches and so chimps survived. But humans overlapped with wolves for the same prey, and they ended up domesticating them - but no doubt wolf numbers are less as a result of humans.

Wolves used to be the most widely distributed land mammal until humans. Now only small pockets of wolf population exist in various places. I think domestication can only account for a fraction of the population size of the past.

[bebotalk]

On 23/04/2024 at 1:51 PM, Basman said:

Humans and primates (chimps, gorillas, etc.) are closely related but ultimately different in my opinion. Humans are part of their own genus. It is just that our species of human is the only surviving species at the moment.

Humans, or homo sapiens, are extremely competitive and our complex social system and ability to create shared fictional myths (a social matrix) gives us the advantage over other animals. Our ability to create culture allows for cooperation across millions of individuals via shared identity based on fictional qualities, like nationality and institutions. Most social animals can only cooperate with other animals they personally are familiar with, I.E. their tribe/family. This is what makes humans unique.

People always say that chimps are our closest cousin which I find to be an erroneous statement. Yes, they are our closest living relative genetically but only because we killed every other species that would compete with us, including other species of human. Cave lions and wolves used to be everywhere but where eradicated wherever humans went, the former being driven to complete extinction, because the species are competitors with humans, specifically for territory and prey/livestock. Neanderthals are a great example of another species that was most likely in my opinion driven to extinction by humans because of the conflicting interest. Humans won due to superior numbers and strategy as a social species despite being individually weaker than a neanderthal human.

Point is, humans are extremely competitive and tend to kill their competition historically speaking. The fact that of all the species considered "primates", humans are the only generalist species. Arguably, the reason chimps have continued to survive despite of humans is because of how unlike us they are, I.E. a lack of conflicting interests. Everything that is like us, like neanderthals, where killed because "there can only be one" in our savage brains (and we rule the world as a result).

I'm not rejecting the notion that humans are not "lowly animals" by saying that we are not apes,  just that we are not apes specifically.

You seem to revel in creating narratives in your own head and assuming it's a fact. 

Humans are a separate genus - homo.

Whilst we're part of the wider great apes family, all hominids (essentially upright walking ape descendants that have or haven't used tools) are in a distinct grouping of primates. 

Ever since hominids used tools, then this includes the genus homo. Which further incorporates ourselves (homo sapiens), the Neanderthals, homo habilis, homo erectus, homo heidelbergensis (believed to be our direct ancestor), etc.

Genetic studies and just basic anatomical views shows we're related to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. You'd have to provide firm evidence that we're not as such.

 

 

[Basman]

22 hours ago, bebotalk said:

You seem to revel in creating narratives in your own head and assuming it's a fact. 

Humans are a separate genus - homo.

Whilst we're part of the wider great apes family, all hominids (essentially upright walking ape descendants that have or haven't used tools) are in a distinct grouping of primates. 

Ever since hominids used tools, then this includes the genus homo. Which further incorporates ourselves (homo sapiens), the Neanderthals, homo habilis, homo erectus, homo heidelbergensis (believed to be our direct ancestor), etc.

Genetic studies and just basic anatomical views shows we're related to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. You'd have to provide firm evidence that we're not as such.

Not saying that humans are not closely related to chimps and company, just that we are our own thing. People keep saying how much we are alike chimps when what helps chimps and company survive is how different they are from us.

 

[Hojo]

Human are monkey and alien combined. Aliens are god they created a simulation on earth. You are on alien spaceship in a human video game. You aren't here in a human you are witnessing the life of a human from far away.

Its a new kind of genius.

God is nothing it has no part in the universe its hands off it is the universe and does things through things not as them as a the game itself.

Edited April 28 by Hojo