Polyamory

[Danioover9000]

@Cocolove

On 2024-04-23 at 8:52 AM, Cocolove said:

Hello,

What are your thoughts on polyamorous relationships? (just started and its lit)

A couple things, there is definitely a lot of green in things like relationship anarchy, orange can practice open relationships or swinging or whatever, and so I think its way too simplistic to reduce it to a stage, but please do use the spiral to explain things. Do you think polyamory can be practiced in a yellow way, in a healthy way, in a self-actualizing way, etc. If so, how can this be done?

 

   IMO polyamorous is mostly immoral and harder to manage. And what do you mean by a lot of green and orange? Spiral Dynamics stages of development, the human cultural values modal? Why are you conflating Spiral Dynamics with polygamy and polyamory?

On 2024-04-23 at 4:22 PM, Cocolove said:

I also just struggle with all the low consciousness criticisms, it would be nice to hear a better pro con evaluation.

I think it can be done and it's not that hard 

   What is a low consciousness criticism to you? And why are you conflating your experiences as if they can advocate to other groups of men and people? It maybe true in your experience so far your poly is going smoothly, so far, yet why assume you speak for most average people here?

On 2024-04-23 at 7:34 PM, Cocolove said:

Okay but what if you totally can handle monogamy and have invested and work hard on healthy relationships, and polyamory comes as a natural next step as I find it fulfilling, helps me embody higher consciousness, healthier attachment, better communication, etc.

I mean I have an opinion I think it's great. Honestly i'm just surpised more people here aren't into it.

   How is polyamory the next step off of monogamy, when in history native tribes and pagans were mostly poly than mongamous, and when organized religions that are staunch stage blue with some stage red values overthrew cuckoldry and polygamy/polyamory and established arranged marriages and promoted monogamous relationships?

On 2024-04-23 at 8:35 PM, Cocolove said:

Not in my experience, with communication and everyone taking a conscious approach there's no need for drama. Haven't had any other than working out initial dynamics can be complicated and hard.

I think drama can certainly be avoided its low consciousness.

   Again, why do you think, despite how valid your experiences are personally and individually, that you have the right to advocate the collective and convert more people into being polyamorous and cucks? Why do you want more competition in your dating area like this, and disregard the values of marriages and monogamous relations like this?

On 2024-04-25 at 0:51 AM, Cocolove said:

bumping because i know yall have opinions i dont understand why everybody aint doin it

   Not a big deal, some threads have traction, some like yours don't.

On 2024-04-25 at 8:53 AM, Cocolove said:

 i think plenty of green people do it fine if they have a heathy psychology. 

Why do you think it doesn't work unless everyone is turqouise? come on I know you got some reasons!

   And plenty of stage greens still do monogamous relations and some have a reasonable healthy psyche. Why assume most greens are poly and anti monogamy? Why assume poly won't work unless we're all in a stage turquoise communist utopia?

19 hours ago, Cocolove said:

Ok well what about relationship anarchy, that's a whole super green antihierarchical school of thought that doesn't believe in primary partnership. Certainly lots of green people are actually poly. 

You heard on a podcast extreme levels of jealousy can occur? i mean yea, but it can also be worked through and you can live without it. It's not optimal to be always jealous. In my situation some people just don't really have much jealousy to deal with, including me. Why would you be jealous?

I appreciate these takes though since you're not just saying its fundamentally flawed haha.

   Why do you assume a lot of stage green valuing people, like new agers and hippies are mostly poly? Some are more open ended relations, and some still do monogamy. Why do you think it's unnatural for jealousy to occur?

19 hours ago, Cocolove said:

Yea makes sense.

I don't know, for me, why would I want to get in the way of other people's love. And why would I think that it affects me? I just feel like people have the capacity to love multiple people and it doesn't take away from my relationships. Furthermore, if  someone ends up closer to someone else than me, maybe they are a better match and have a better relationship. I woudn't want to restrict them and prevent them from having a better relationship for my own needs. And I would want the same.

The sacrifices, control, limitations, jealousy, insecurity, romanticization, and everything associated with monogamy feels so low consciousness I just don't feel drawn to it.

   And this is your problem being projected onto a large swarf of people here. You think monogamy is way too controlling, to sacrificial,  too limited, too jealousy, too insecure, too romanticized, and somehow everything with monogamy feels 'so low consciousness'. This is the most blatant bad faith fallacies of monogamy I HAVE EVER HEARD! If this is the hill you want to die on, fine, but don't assume you'll not get reasonable backlash for this type of thinking!

[Danioover9000]

@Rafael Thundercat

16 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

nice @Danioover9000 another promising thread gone to the trash with Destiny Bullshit. Congratulations. To Hell with Destiny

   Why do you not think he's a good example of polyamorous relations gone wrong? OP is proclaiming the benefits of poly via his anecdotal experiences, wants to hear our opinions, and what? Not expect reasonable pushback? Don't assume all poly is smooth sailing, just like monogamy, yet on averages poly is much harder than monogamy, and OP's bias is creating these false conflations, trying to persuade and convert more into poly when it's actually not all rainbows. Monogamy prevailed mostly over poly for very good reasons.

[eos_nyxia]

Here is an issue; it’s a categorical one:

1. people want to fit the entire value of human connection into this box: monogamous relationships
2. people want to fit the entire value of human connection into this box: polyamorous relationships

Good relationships are good relationships, the form can vary. Harmony can occur in various containers and structures.

I've spent over half my life considering myself poly by sexual orientation, both sexually and emotionally, but have veered sharply towards monogamy in practice. It's a choice I made. But the thing is, even a bunch of “good” partners would not take the place of my husband, especially now more than ever.

 

IDEAL POLY:

• everyone is truly mindful and advocating for everyone else’s best interests and desires
• everyone has the space to be fully seen and heard, and people allow themselves to be truly seen and heard
• people honour each other as human beings first and foremost, without prioritizing “getting theirs” first (which can be difficult if you’re part of a LTR/ marriage unit as you tend to prioritize that person by default)
• everyone has the chance to have their desires realized in a mutually agreed upon, open, and self-aware way
• you have ways of processing your emotions as a group and disentangling from each other when necessary (again, for everyone's mutual benefit)
• there are more opportunities to grow and explore than there would be if you were just restricted to monogamous relationships, an opportunity for a different sort of complexity and richness than there would be otherwise (like a soup with many different ingredients, lol)
• more opportunities for actual emotional commitment and development in your life (for those of us who were never just interested in keeping people in our lives, having deeper connections, not just a rotation of sex “friends” and flings)
• more emotional support from different people with shared values (like a built-in community or "village"), more variety of emotional support with people who have different strengths and energies... if it works well, arguably this can be more balanced than just relying on one person to fulfill all your needs and desires. I think of it a bit like having a large extended, involved family instead of a nuclear family (the latter which is pretty "unnatural" because the structure is most often a result of societal conditioning first and not two people spontaneously being in love with each other and making that choice out of pure desire rather than in the spirit of restriction).

Edited April 26 by eos_nyxia

[eos_nyxia]

REALITY:

• I’m getting pickier: why would I settle for subpar interactions with the opposite sex, whether it’s flirting or sex, when I already have it amazingly good? Plus my intuition takes the mystery out of all of it these days. I look into people's eyes, really pay attention to their vibe and what they say, even if just for a moment's notice; I know what I need to know about them and what they have to offer, but also what they COULD offer me if I also offered everything I could offer to them freely. Sure, I could hypothetically find a way to facilitate and find better connections, by why sift through all the trash when things could be peaceful instead? Why is this worth the extra time and energy?
• cautiousness about rocking the boat. Both my husband and I are fairly physically inexperienced, and I know if we change this, obviously we cannot go back.
• actually enjoying being someone’s full, first priority in all ways, and I enjoy knowing that I can fulfill someone in this way. To become more fully this with someone. (This is a purely selfish thing. So what? The only thing that’s really wrong with selfishness is if you’re not capable of also being “selfish” on other people’s behalf in return, whether it’s one person or many, or if it’s in romantic and sexual relationships or friendships. Selfish/ selfless, it’s all the same thing at the beginning and the very end of it all...)
• If I’m being honest, not being at the centre of a poly man’s focus (assuming he was also non-single) doesn’t turn me on. At all. And by not being a turn on, I don't just mean that I would get jealous, though I might. (Jealousy isn't a "bad" emotion, by the way.) I mean that it's an utter, blinding bore... and because I don't hate myself, I like people who are completely certain about being into me, showing it, and making it their priority. If he’s only focused on me when he’s with me because he has his own other partners to focus on later, then I will respond in turn. It's a purely selfish thing for sure and not a game worth playing. I have nothing to gain from this.
• having trust. This matters more to me than it otherwise might, because my own family and most of my connections were deeply, highly untrustworthy in the past.
• I spent so long dealing with a lack of variety (in personalities and bodies) that I do actually feel like I probably am not missing out that much. Interacting with the opposite sex tends to confirm that, unfortunately.
• the thought of excessive complications isn’t that appealing, like the risk/ reward ratio seems far less worthwhile.  For example: not wanting to have someone get between us and poison our well, but also not wanting to exclude people and make them feel like an outsider either, or like a 3rd or 4th wheel. (Everyone ought to pick what focus matters most in their lives, depending on what they wish to experience and accomplish, based on your most important values.)

Edited April 26 by eos_nyxia

[Rafael Thundercat]

[nerdspeak]

I have experimented with poly and didn't find it worked too well for me. The relationships I had were kind of thin, and all came crashing down during a major crisis (Russian invasion lol) when multiple partners wanted support from me at the same time. I couldn't be there for all of them equally. 

You might say, that's a unique event, but I know a lot of boomer New Left types among whom poly was very popular in the 70s, including a psychotherapist (not mine) who is pretty self-aware. They all concluded that it doesn't work very well. That doesn't mean that it is ethically problematic, just that it isn't very satisfying long term. 

A big part of the needs romantic relationships fill in contemporary Western society are basic survival needs that would have historically been met by the extended family or tribe. By that I don't mean housing or food, but the sense that someone would be there for you in an emergency, if you got sick, etc. 

Polyamorous relationships seem like they might meet that need even better -- I am romantically bonded with multiple people, so if one doesn't come through I have a back-up! But it doesn't really work that way. 

Summary of their points. 

1. The female orgasm releases a lot of oxytocin, so if a woman is orgasming with multiple partners, she will feel conflicted about which partners' needs to prioritize. This can cause a lot of problems and jealousy even without any sort of acute crises, especially because, in general, women into poly will have an easier time finding partners than men. Both because women are more selective, and because fewer women are open to poly.  
2. Men don't release much oxytocin from physical intimacy -- it's more through emotional and verbal intimacy. However, men don't really have much of an incentive to pursue verbal intimacy in poly relationships. This intimacy is built largely through verbal and emotional conflcit, and instead of working through these issues with their partners and building intimacy, if the option to go see another woman is there, most men will just withdraw and start spending time with another woman...until conflict starts with that woman too.  So, the relationships end up being kind of superficial for the men, because they have no incentive to stick it through. 

The ones that stuck with alternative lifestyles said the swingers' lifestyle is actually a lot better for relationships than poly, because both partners are getting the dopamine and excitement together. 

 

[Cocolove]

@puporing Ok but what if I do have that, it's not just armchair philosophy it actually works.
@Basman I think that is all true but STD risk can always be mitigated in any situation, its worth the work, and jealousy is something to trancend one way or another.

 

@Danioover9000  I don't think I'm conflating SD and polyamory, I was pretty clear to not do that. I just think the model could help us evaluate a conscious way to practice polyamory.

For me, a low consciousness criticism would be a moralistic one, or a moralistic one veiled in practical or traditionalist takes.

I think you're getting a little battle-brained. I'm not ideological about this or trying to convert people. I want to understand how to do polyamory in a healthy high consciousness way. If you think that's not possible, of course I want to hear why. But overall I don't think I resonate with your perspective very much.

 

@eos_nyxia I really appreciated your post thank you very much. Helps me understand why some people who understand the appeal might not want to do it. For me I just feel very poly and also don't think it needs to interfere with the depth of my relationships.

 

@nerdspeak That's very interesting thank you!

 

 

 

 

I think I just need to try it and if it doesn't work for me there's only one way to find out, obviously. But it's interesting to hear these takes and very helpful.

[eos_nyxia]

On 2024-04-28 at 7:50 AM, nerdspeak said:

I have experimented with poly and didn't find it worked too well for me. The relationships I had were kind of thin, and all came crashing down during a major crisis (Russian invasion lol) when multiple partners wanted support from me at the same time. I couldn't be there for all of them equally.

This definitely seems like it would be an inevitable issue if all of your poly relationships are compartmentalized and mostly separated from each other because you and your partners' lives don't overlap, or else one or more partners end up seriously deprioritized. Even if you had the energy, there's that limited time factor.

How do these people have any time for a career, hobbies, other non-romantic relationships, other aspirations, personal development... or even just alone time?

Quote

Men don't release much oxytocin from physical intimacy -- it's more through emotional and verbal intimacy. However, men don't really have much of an incentive to pursue verbal intimacy in poly relationships. This intimacy is built largely through verbal and emotional conflcit, and instead of working through these issues with their partners and building intimacy, if the option to go see another woman is there, most men will just withdraw and start spending time with another woman...until conflict starts with that woman too.  So, the relationships end up being kind of superficial for the men, because they have no incentive to stick it through.

Source of this?

TBH one trope I keep hearing over and over again is that men "need" sex to bond, if not partially because they tend to deprioritize other types of non-romantic, non-sexual touch and interaction. 

Quote

The ones that stuck with alternative lifestyles said the swingers' lifestyle is actually a lot better for relationships than poly, because both partners are getting the dopamine and excitement together.

For someone who started off with an avoidant attachment style, "sex only" style nonmonogamy definitely doesn't seem healthy for me. As in, it would be encouraging even more avoidant attachments.

I had a handful of good girl friends growing up (let's just say between the ages of 12 to 16) who did the whole serial monogamy thing: a new boyfriend every 2-3 months, like clockwork. It was so obviously about the rush of new attraction, attention, and sexual experimentation, while maintaining some veneer of respectability. Some of them got older and continued that pattern, some did not. I don't think "sex only" relationships, monogamous or not, are great for people with avoidant attachment tendencies either.

Edited April 30 by eos_nyxia

[universe]

Polyamory is in a way closer to Truth. As you become less and less delusional about Love being limited to one person in the universe.

The practical part is a bit tricky though.

I can see it in a healthy way with people who all know they want it and no one being "forced" to be in a poly-relationship with someone else. Also I see people being married to one partner while having rituals where they explore Love deeper with others, for example at green gatherings.

Or you can just be conscious of the fact that Love is limitless and that the boundaries that is your monogamous relationship are an illusion. While simply not exploring that side very far. That can also be nice and I think is more practical these days.

 

If you have a strong craving for poly while being mono or for mono while being poly it could be a good indicator to go inwards and see where this craving is coming from.

 

❤️

[Cocolove]

50 minutes ago, universe said:

Polyamory is in a way closer to Truth. As you become less and less delusional about Love being limited to one person in the universe.

haha see I expected more of this on here. When I say I think it's higher consciousness I just mean this kind of thing.