28 year old girl scheduled to die via AS due to depression

[Majed]

@Leo Gura is there a connection between spirituality and mental illness ? for me yes, i have a mental illness: ocd and psychosis. and before treating my symptoms, i was living in a different reality because of it.literally reality and its interpretation was different. 

[Majed]

i asked claude 3 this question: 

is there a connection between spirituality and mental illness ?

she says: 

There is a complex relationship between spirituality and mental illness that is not fully understood. Here are a few key points about potential connections:

Some forms of intense spiritual or religious experiences can sometimes get misdiagnosed or confused with symptoms of certain mental illnesses like psychosis or mania. Visions, voices, trances etc. can overlap with psychotic symptoms.

However, mainstream religious/spiritual beliefs and practices are generally considered distinct from mental illness by mental health professionals as long as they are not causing significant distress or impairment.

For some individuals, spirituality and religious faith can provide meaning, coping mechanisms, social support and resilience that promotes better mental health.

Conversely, for others, certain beliefs or practices related to spirituality (e.g. scrupulosity, demonic/spirit possession beliefs) can exacerbate anxiety, obsessions or psychotic symptoms.

Some mental health problems like psychosis or trauma can potentially make individuals more prone to developing eccentric or unconventional spiritual/religious beliefs.

Overall, the relationship goes both ways - mental illness can influence spiritual experiences, and spiritual beliefs/contexts can influence manifestation of mental illness symptoms.

So in essence, while spirituality alone is not considered a mental illness, there are complex interactions that make the two domains difficult to fully separate for some individuals. Professional assessment is required in many cases.

[Majed]

@Leo Gura you've already touched upon this relationship between spirituality and mental illness in a blog post talking about schizophrenia.

[zurew]

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

and the seperation between the ones who "don't have" mental conditions to the ones who have them is a mistake, and also wrong.

What do you mean?

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Spirituality and mental health heading the same direction fundamentally,

Maybe.

But , im not sure I see the relevance of that point. Do you think a spiritual teacher is qualified to treat patients with mental illness?

Edited April 26 by zurew

[Yimpa]

13 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Leo Gura you've already touched upon this relationship between spirituality and mental illness in a blog post talking about schizophrenia.

https://www.actualized.org/insights/understanding-psychosis

[Nivsch]

39 minutes ago, zurew said:

What do you mean?

We all have sometimes symptoms that remind a mild version of some mental condition, when the differences between us and the people we consider to have bpd/ocd/schizo etc are on degree and not on kind.

Therefore when we seperare ourselves from such people and saying we can't touch them, we are in a sense betray the goal for which we are here in the first place that is to help ourselves (and others) conquer their most profound emotional challenges what spirituality is all about.

Edited April 26 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

43 minutes ago, zurew said:

Do you think a spiritual teacher is qualified to treat patients with mental illness?

No, but can be an another layer of help in an holistic approach.

[zurew]

35 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

We all have sometimes symptoms that remind a mild or even very mild version of some mental condition, when the differences between us and the people we consider to have bpd/ocd/schizo etc are on degree and not on kind..

If your criticism is that we put some members in the mental illness box too quickly or we do it based on not enough info - I disagree, because that specific member had a consistent pattern of behavior and not just a random or a few outbursts once in while.

Regarding you saying that its more about degree rather than kind - I disagree. If you have a certain mental illness your brain actually works quite differently compared to people who don't have that specific illness. - and this is not about to feel better or superior than those people, this about recognizing that difference so that they can actually be treated differently if the situation requires it do so.

35 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Therefore when we seperare ourselves from such people and saying we can't touch them, we are in a sense betray the goal for which we are here in the first place that is to help ourselves (and others) conquer their most profound emotional challenges what spirituality is all about.

 Recognizing correctly who has what seems to be essential to maximize the ability to help and sometimes helping means that you need to let certain people go.

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

No, but can be an another layer of help in an holistic approach.

Or can be harmful. There is a hell of a lot research need to be done on this topic, before we can play around any holistic approach.

I know you didn't imply this - but I don't think its responsible to treat some members here as experiments for certain approaches

Edited April 26 by zurew

[Buck Edwards]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Ok so throw them to the ocean to be dependent only on psychiatry without broadening their perspective. Very responsible.

Yes I agree with you. People need a support system and not just a psychiatrist. Mental illness is complex. 

@Leo Gura helping someone is not the same as therapy. In fact most clients with mental illness can do great with even minimal amount of coaching. Speaking from experience. 

[Buck Edwards]

2 hours ago, zurew said:

There is also a case to be made - that if you allow her to stay you will contribute to her stress, because she will get triggered repeatedly by other forum members.

Then create a better environment lol.. This is akin to saying that "she is not having a problem but she is a problem." That is the worst form of scapegoating implied by your comment sorry. 

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Buck Edwards said:

Then create a better environment lol.. This is akin to saying that "she is not having a problem but she is a problem." That is the worst form of scapegoating implied by your comment sorry. 

Yeah right. Im sure you have a well thought out response to this:

If you have more than 1 mentally ill members on the forum, which one are you going to optimize the whole forum around?

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, eos_nyxia said:

This is a terrible idea...

Even if you're not held legally responsible for someone killing themselves (are you? can you be?), people in a community will hold you morally responsible if that person ends up doing it, whether you could feasibly have done anything to prevent it or not. It follows people who are considered to be in "role model"/ leader type positions around like a black stain, at least until the original people leave or memories fade.

This happened at least once on this forum already while Preety was still here.

Personally, I would only ever be directly responsible for someone in this way if 1) we had a long-standing, otherwise stable relationship (friends, partner) 2) they're my relatives, or if we lived in a world without any other social resources or infrastructure. Unfortunately, I have a finite amount of time and energy to direct toward certain causes, even if I did happen to be competent with dealing with distressed people.

Feasibly, someone could be helped/ supported if they had more of an outside support system and if they could manage mutually beneficial boundaries (or at least, manage their own boundaries). People who come to spiritual communities are often severely lacking in both. I'm not blaming them; it is what it is.

Helping someone is not the same as being responsible for someone. Where do you get these funky ideas? You make it so unnecessarily complicated. If someone kills themselves, it's really on them. Besides nobody can stop themselves from killing themselves. All I know is that a suicidal folks have really gotten better by asking for help and getting community support, this forum itself. Terrible idea to put them away. 

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Buck Edwards said:

Helping someone is not the same as being responsible for someone. Where do you get these funky ideas? You make it so unnecessarily complicated. If someone kills themselves, it's really on them. Besides nobody can stop themselves from killing themselves. All I know is that a suicidal folks have really gotten better by asking for help and getting community support, this forum itself. Terrible idea to put them away.

Sounds like a very responsible approach - I will try to help them, but if I fuck them up its not on me.

[Buck Edwards]

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

Sounds like a very responsible approach - I will try to help them, but if I fuck them up its not on me

 

Man you can't decide everything. A mentally ill person is not a child. Have you been to a ward? There are several suicidal and bipolar people here. You're acting as though everything leads to only negative consequences. This is where we need open mindedness. 

Edited April 26 by Buck Edwards

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Majed said:

is there a connection between spirituality and mental illness ?

There can be a connection. But that's not a connection my teachings explore.

Treating mental illness is a niche specialization. It requires specialized experience and expertise. It's not like giving general life advice because you could really harm already fragile people. Therapists who specialize in that go through special training and they get special certifications. And even then it's an uphill battle to help such people. This task requires a lot of time and close attention which I cannot provide over the internet.

Edited April 26 by Leo Gura

[eos_nyxia]

13 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Helping someone is not the same as being responsible for someone. Where do you get these funky ideas? You make it so unnecessarily complicated. If someone kills themselves, it's really on them. Besides nobody can stop themselves from killing themselves. All I know is that a suicidal folks have really gotten better by asking for help and getting community support, this forum itself. Terrible idea to put them away. 

Funky ideas? I have my own set of self-protective boundaries, as does this community. It's basically built into the forum rules; you ought to read it if you haven't. You do too, or else there would be nothing to get defensive about.

Have you ever met or interacted with the person in question? In her own way, she did not want to be helped, or she wanted it only on her very specific, often changing terms, which I empathize with... but it was exhausting. (Someone else also mentioned her refusing to get professional help at the time.) She regularly picked fights (or vice versa) with people publically and privately and then would make up with them (or not). Like I said, she set many people on edge, including other people with various diagnosed conditions on here, including people who also suffered from suicidal ideation. Those people matter too, you know. 

I also tried to "help" as much as I could at times as I had talked to her quite a bit in PM, even when she was.... not so nice to me... though I don't know what good it did in the long term. She and everyone else either got kicked out or moved on.

I am not saying that she deserved to suffer, or that she actively wanted to suffer. There is a difference. But I know that multiple people already did their best with her, within their means.

Edited April 26 by eos_nyxia

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

You're acting as though everything leads to only negative consequences. This is where we need open mindedness. 

This is not about open mindedness, this is about responsibility. You treat this forum as a place where you can experiment on these people ,while you don't want to take any responsbility if your advice have a negative effect on them.

This place is not a place for doing experiments or research on these people.

Edited April 26 by zurew

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, eos_nyxia said:

Funky ideas? I have a set of self-protective boundaries, as does this community. It's basically built into the forum rules; you ought to read it if you haven't.

Have you ever met or interacted with the person in question? In her own way, she did not want to be helped, or she only on her very specific, often changing terms, which was exhausting. (Someone mentioned her refusing to get professional help at the time.) She regularly picked fights (or vice versa) with people publically and privately and then would make up with them (or not). Like I said, she set many people on edge, including other people with various diagnosed conditions on here, including people who also suffered from suicidal ideation. Those people matter too, you know. 

I also tried to "help" as much as I could at times as I had talked to her quite a bit in PM, though I don't know what good it did. She and everyone else either got kicked out or moved on.

I am not saying that she deserved to suffer, or that she actively wanted to suffer. There is a difference.

How do we know that this community or maybe some members weren't toxic to her. There are fights here everyday. From the outlook of your series of posts on this thread alone, seems like you had personal vendetta against her, I wouldn't trust your opinion on her. So also others. Groups like these communities can be inherently harmful if people bear grudges. Your post seems like an example. That's not the kind of language you should use for anyone, let alone for someone who you claim to be helping who is struggling. No more debate sorry. Carry on but it's kinda fucked up to be this negative about someone when they are not here. 

[Nivsch]

27 minutes ago, zurew said:

your brain actually works quite differently compared to people who don't have that

Because of tons of factors that worsen his situation much more than me or your situation.

Edited April 26 by Nivsch

[Carl-Richard]

"They have tried everything". Sounds like bullshit.