28 year old girl scheduled to die via AS due to depression

[Applegarden8]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think some of you guys appreciate how hopeless and bad some people's situation is. You can't simply meditate your way out of every situation.

I fundamentally disagree. All of you took birth for the desire of oneness and truth in the first place. Depression is for the material desires you can't even exhaust for the most part. Even kings can't. There is some truth to what you are saying, yes, if you are constantly repressed, abused, jailed for life, crippled for life, watched your family get killed or sexually abused on a regular basis or living on the street for long periods of time or are stuck in a village for life, then it is quite challenging.  But still from the other side... what does knowing and experiencing freedom will give you? How much exactly? Maybe it makes all the difference? Problem is that society offers no tools and sometimes you have to go trough literal hell to experience some insight which changes your life.

Edited April 23 by Applegarden8

[Nivsch]

53 minutes ago, Mormegil said:

That is great to hear, I really wish you all the best with it and hope that it keeps improving for you!

Thank you very much! 💛🙏

[eos_nyxia]

8 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

Depression and BPD. At the end of the day we don't know how it feels for her.

 

Depression comes in varying severities, and along side BPD which is one of the worst disorders to have. She may simply not be able to enjoy her life, doctors cannot do anything more.

 

I'm mildly surprised that no one mentioned the autism diagnosis.

Why are so many people acting like they know what it's like to be her, and what sort of unseen, intangible subjective experiences she might have gone through? There is so much more to suffering than being born in a first-world country or not... in some ways, it seems like being forced to fend for your own can survival significantly simplify the human experience, and that's not always a subjectively negative experience, even when people go through terrible ordeals. Haven't you noticed that people who go through these type of challenges tend to have some sense that there is at least a point to it all?

In my own experience, if you used to live in the simplicity of survival mode, whatever the source or cause of it, living in a reality which is calmer, more open-ended, more peaceful... it can be extremely unpleasant and overwhelming. The past catches up with you, particularly if strife and aversion to your own body and experience is hardcoded into you since childhood, including at the raw sensory level which is something that many, many autistic people have to live and make sense of on a daily basis.

For example, I remember reading about this fairly recent study, as well as some related, earlier studies specifically involving autistic women and childhood CSA. : https://www.frontiersin.org/news/2022/04/27/frontiers-behavioral-neuroscience-sexual-abuse-women-with-autism-widespread/

That's just one of many possible issues.

 

 

Edited April 23 by eos_nyxia

[Leo Gura]

BPD can be a really taxing, stubborn, life-long condition. It's hard for such people to live normal well-functioning lives because their mind is so chaotic.

It's no surprise that such people have a high suicide rate.

It's hard for a normal person to understand the hell that BPD can be and how stubborn it is.

Edited April 24 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

BPD can be a really taxing, stubborn, life-long condition. It's hard for such people to live normal well-functioning lives because their mind is so chaotic.

It's no surprise that such people have a high suicide rate.

It's hard for a normal person to understand the hell that BPD can be and how stubborn it is.

Yeah, it's very sad.

There are also too many different people in the world with too many different kinds of hells they go through. 

Stuff like this makes me feel very depressed about humanity.

[Jodistrict]

Not surprisingly, this is a complicated issue.   A recent research report recommended reconsidering legalization of EAS.

"First, we would argue that wishes for death or suicide, even when clearly articulated by the patient to doctors or next-of-kin, and even if it represents the true will at that very moment, this desire or wish for death will likely change in many of these cases. As we have pointed out above, such an articulated death wish, can be a symptom of the disorder and may in reality convey several other possible messages, that have more to do with the patient feeling abandoned, disappointed or angry. It may also convey a wish for help to live rather than a wish for help to die. Second, we would claim that the notion of personality disorders as “untreatable” conditions and “without prospects of improvement” are based on outdated knowledge about the state of PD treatment. Today, a range of effective psychotherapeutic interventions are available for people with personality disorders in most of the countries that have so far legalized EAS. That this has seemingly escaped the attention of both legislators and expert medical communities is deeply disturbing. It may be that the current lack of effective psychotropic medication to treat personality disorders could have made many physicians and psychiatrists not specializing in PD treatment less optimistic about the prognosis in people with PDs and the prospects of receiving effective treatment in general. We urgently call for a revision of the current legislation and practice of EAS for people with personality disorders which we believe, is currently based on an inadequate understanding of these peoples’ needs and their potentials for having a life worth living."

https://bpded.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40479-020-00131-9

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Applegarden8 said:

sometimes you have to go trough literal hell to experience some insight which changes your life.

+1 ❤

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Yeah, it's very sad.

There are also too many different people in the world with too many different kinds of hells they go through. 

Stuff like this makes me feel very depressed about humanity.

No one disagrees that life can be hard.

What's the solution?

Is the solution to end yourself?

You got no clue if you can end the suffering, by ending the body. If it's the body that's torturing you, then you would be correct. But if it's the mind that's torturing you, then killing yourself will NOT end the sufferings of the mind.

It's not a joke when you say, killing yourself is not the answer. It's literally true.

You don't know if killing yourself will end the suffering or makes it worse.

Most people don't think about this. It's like taking huge debt with no concerns on paying it back. Life will make you pay no matter what. Do not die in debt.

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

You don't know if killing yourself will end the suffering or makes it worse.

Interestingly, I’ve done ketamine infusions (which have been shown to help those who are suicidal). From my experience, a high dose of ketamine showed me clearly that the suffering that was killing me ceased to exist. I didn’t feel numb from pain or avoiding it… no, I felt truly free and alive. It was honestly a miracle! A suicidal person who experiences something like this will have a much clearer picture of themselves post-infusion. 

[Girzo]

11 hours ago, Applegarden8 said:

fundamentally disagree. All of you took birth for the desire of oneness and truth in the first place.

This is toxic spirituality. I would give you a kick to the ass if I ever had some permanent medical condition and you told to my face that I wished to be born with problems.

Edited April 24 by Girzo

[zurew]

People shouldn't downplay the seriousness of mental illness. No matter what you think  right now about  how strong your character or mind is - a bad enough psychedelic trip can tear your mind apart. 

For some people with mental illness is like this: You either have a never ending very bad psychedelic trip or its a frequently scheduled very bad psychedelic trip .

[Salvijus]

On 2024-04-23 at 1:36 AM, Leo Gura said:

I don't think some of you guys appreciate how hopeless and bad some people's situation is. You can't simply meditate your way out of every situation.

True. But maybe there's no alternative. Every other choice is very questionable. Like scriptures say. "Only truth will set you free" maybe that statement is true. 

Edited April 24 by Salvijus

[zurew]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

No one disagrees that life can be hard.

What's the solution?

Is the solution to end yourself?

You got no clue if you can end the suffering, by ending the body. If it's the body that's torturing you, then you would be correct. But if it's the mind that's torturing you, then killing yourself will NOT end the sufferings of the mind.

It's not a joke when you say, killing yourself is not the answer. It's literally true.

You don't know if killing yourself will end the suffering or makes it worse.

Most people don't think about this. It's like taking huge debt with no concerns on paying it back. Life will make you pay no matter what. Do not die in debt.

Arguments like that don't work.

The main premise is that you have unbearable suffering right now, and you know that if you don't end your life you will continue to suffer.

Lets say it is a fact, that there is plenty of suffering after you die. That isn't an argument against suicide, because you will die either way, so by living you would just delay the suffering that will come after your death  - but in this case you are not really delaying suffering because you are suffering right now.

The argument could possibly work if you could establish with certainty either that guaranteed suffering awaits you after you commit suicide (but you won't suffer if you don't commit suicide )  OR you would have to establish that there is a guaranteed suffering that will await you after death (regardless if you kill yourself or not) ,but that kind of suffering will be greater than the suffering you are experiencing right now.

The gamble arguments don't work unless you can demonstrate that a negative outcome is more probable than the opposite - if you can't do that , then your argument isn't an argument for anything ,because it can go either way (in this context maybe not killing yourself will for some random reason make you suffer more in the afterlife).

Edited April 24 by zurew

[Bobby_2021]

@zurew All I am saying is that killing yourself is not the solution to end the suffering. Because I do not see how it is the solution. It could end up better or worse.

If you are advocating for suicide as the solution, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that it gets better. Else it would not be a solution.

I do not discount the possibility that it could better after killing yourself. But like you said, you do not have proof for it.

Edited April 24 by Bobby_2021

[josemar]

I see no downside to giving EAS people 5meo dmt, what have they got to lose? They'd be dead anyway.

And just when they're realizing "omg I'm God.... Omg reality is nothing.... Omg it's total freedom, unconditional love!!!!" doctor goes "too late, b*tch!!111" and injects the lethal juice.

[Basman]

To be fair to the professionals in this case, the process for getting AS wasn't a willy-nilly one apparently, with a long bureaucratic chain with different people assessing the situation. Apparently it took years for her death to be scheduled from when she first applied.

But I still think it is wrong for the therapist to deem all hope lost. In my opinion, a mental health professional should never decide that a patient can no longer improve or that they should apply for AS. The problem is that therapists have limited tools and our understanding of mental health is still developing.

But if a patient wants to apply for AS they can in my opinion. Most applications for AS get rejected anyway apparently. It takes a special something to get your application granted.

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

@zurew All I am saying is that killing yourself is not the solution to end the suffering. Because I do not see how it is the solution. It could end up better or worse.

If you are advocating for suicide as the solution, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that it gets better. Else it would not be a solution.

I do not discount the possibility that it could better after killing yourself. But like you said, you do not have proof for it.

So is your position, then that you are completely agnostic (you give 50-50) about whether committing suicide will eliviate ones suffering or not?

[Bobby_2021]

51 minutes ago, zurew said:

So is your position, then that you are completely agnostic (you give 50-50) about whether committing suicide will eliviate ones suffering or not?

I don't give 50-50. Maybe it could be 80-20. I don't know.

Which is why I say that AS is not the solution. 

You are free to prove me otherwise.

-------

I don't intend to convince anyone out of this since it's out of my power.

If you are loser and you die, you are dieing a loser. When you are living, you still have lots of time to win. Dieing is giving up on that power especially at a young age. 

I don't give a fuck if you are 60+ and wants AS. 

[Nivsch]

On 23.4.2024 at 10:22 PM, Yimpa said:

The term mental illness can  be problematic if one has wrong assumptions about what metal illness is. Many still assume that people have control over their mental illness and therefore shame and guilt them into thinking that there’s something fundamentally wrong with them (rather than treating the mental illness as something that is separate from the whole person).

Not because of that, but because the very term itself is fundamentally flawed, and blinds us from relating to the problem in the right manner and from understanding what is really going on and connecting the dots in a deeper level.

Edited April 24 by Nivsch

[eos_nyxia]

10 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I don't give 50-50. Maybe it could be 80-20. I don't know.

Which is why I say that AS is not the solution. 

You are free to prove me otherwise.

-------

I don't intend to convince anyone out of this since it's out of my power.

If you are loser and you die, you are dieing a loser. When you are living, you still have lots of time to win. Dieing is giving up on that power especially at a young age. 

I don't give a fuck if you are 60+ and wants AS. 

1) How is anyone supposed to prove that things get better after you die without supernatural or paranormal means? Or did you mean something else?

2) In any case, what justification does anyone have for the sheer selfishness of telling other people to be in pain... basically for your own benefit and moral code/ belief system? So that your reality is kept safe and intact, so that your idea of a fair/ just worldview is preserved?

Look. It's not like any of us are going to be taking on anyone's else pains directly, living out their life for them. Very, very few people are doing whatever is possible to see things and empathizing with people directly from their perspective (as much as humanly possible anyway) rather than pushing their own agenda first and foremost.

IMO it's not so different in attitude with people who are pro everyone having kids, but when it comes to doing something themselves about creating a better social support system for mothers and families, let alone actually being the person to help these people directly.... pretty much all of these people who tell others what to do with their life are conveniently absent and absolved of responsibility.

Nope, it's just a bunch of people who want to tell people what to do. It very much has the effect of condemning people to life. Ironically, it's very hostile to the human spirit and life itself. Trivializing the subjective quality of life tends to do that.

Edited April 24 by eos_nyxia