Gender Fluidity should be an Adult topic

[Alexop]

@Bobby_2021

 Ask them, have no idea what the hell they're doing.

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Alexop said:

@Leo Gura DId you read Beyond Mars and Venus?

No

[Bobby_2021]

22 minutes ago, Alexop said:

@Bobby_2021

 Ask them, have no idea what the hell they're doing.

Funny how they went back the full circle to separating the boys and girls like they do in traditional catholic schools.

And despite all this women still seek traditional career choices and have less women in stem than in the middle east or India. The more they try to suppress the traditional roles, the more you see them acting traditionally in the real world.

This is why schools should give exposure to real world right in the schools itself, but in a controlled way. Kids will learn on their own with minimal help form adults. They just need to get out of their way.

 

[Alexop]

@Bobby_2021 Their problem is that they only use one half of the brain in the equation. They have good intentions but it is not enough. We are different, we have different prefferences in general. There are studies on this. Fun fact about the ICF coaching course I went to: coaching is an EQ-based profession, the trainers were two women and the attendees were 7 women... and me. At my first job in Sweden as a massage therapist at a SPA, the staff was composed of 11 girls, one gay guy, and me. At nurse school there are around 100 women for every 10 male students. Sweden the big mamma of gender equality has made considerable efforts to equalize the gender gap in professions, but the result was the opposite, the gap is even bigger in Scandinavia than in more traditional countries. People will choose to work whatever they want to work regardless of your equality ideals and ideologies. Scandinavian countries try to erase the behavioral difference between men and women, teaching boys to be more emotional and girls to be stronger and more resilient. Basically swingging the pedulum from one extreme to the other, if traditional countries push for widening the gap between men and women, progressive countries push for making them behave the same. As Leo said, teaching people about masculinity & femininity is crucial here. Yes there are some border cases of authentic feminie men and authentic masculine women, gay people etc... but the general trend is that 90%+ of people fit their biological gender and gravitate towards the corresponding energy.

Edited April 22 by Alexop

[Basman]

2 hours ago, Alexop said:

@Bobby_2021

 Ask them, have no idea what the hell they're doing.

How is it equal to essentially reverse the stereotypical roles? Wouldn't it be more equal to teach both children both the girly and laddy things? What if the boys enjoy the laddy lessons more and the reverse for the girls? Imagine if they did that and the boys just fully embrace those laddy lessons and the reverse for girls. It'll be like those videos where the vegan pet instantly picks the steak over a bowl of salad.

 

Edited April 22 by Basman

[Alexop]

10 minutes ago, Basman said:

How is it equal to essentially reverse the stereotypical roles? Wouldn't it be more equal to teach both children both the girly and laddy things? What if the boys enjoy the laddy lessons more and the reverse for the girls? Doesn't seem equal to me at all.

This is what happens when we let people who did not yet experience the Dunning–Kruger effect to rule society.

Same as in spirituality when a kid who went 10 days to a vipassana tells us how we should behave.

Edited April 22 by Alexop

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

The prerequisite to teaching what masculinity and femininity are, is that the people who give these courses understand it themselves.

It's not so hard.

David Deida's books explain the masculine/feminine dynamic very well. You can treat the topic as a social science and a kind of applied psychology. Similar to sex-ed.

It's not hard to turn masculine and feminine into a course. It's easier to understand than algebra. And it doesn't take 10 years of classes to get it.

Edited April 22 by Leo Gura

[Alexop]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@Leo Gura Okay, but how do we make sure that such people end up at the top of this field? A lot of men for example gravitate to personalities such as Andrew Tate and Donald Trump. How do we make sure that these courses don't end up being taught by some dubious frat bro, or some fedora-wielding Reddit mod?

A mature society will democratically choose mature people to teach their chidren. The same as swedes don't choose Tate figures to rule their country.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

How do we make sure that these courses don't end up being taught by some dubious frat bro, or some fedora-wielding Reddit mod?

How do we make sure that biology is not taught by a fundamentalist Creationist Baptist preacher or physics by a FlatEarther?

Schools have standards for their teachers. An important part of this course would be teaching teens how to distinguish between healthy and toxic forms of masculinity and femininity. This is not something the teacher would invent, it would a standard curicullum based on psychology and social science. Teens would be taught to contemplate and study examples of masculine and feminine figures in history, media, and pop culture, and then discuss their observations, conclusions, and insights.

This is very basic stuff which good educators know how to do. You can pay David Deida to write you a textbook on it. Or pool together from a dozen experts and authors in this field to have some diversity of perspective. You could present traditonal and non-traditional gender roles and have teens contemplate and discuss their pros and cons.

Frankly, it's outrageous that such a class isn't already the norm.

Edited April 22 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

How advanced, would you say, is our current scientific understanding of these ideas?

This topic cannot be simply reduced to science. It's an experiential, psychological, felt thing. It requires subective exploration.

We teach poetry and that is not scientific. So this isn't such a radical idea.

Quote

Do you think that our general comprehension is enough to accommodate for the lack of proper role models?

We have plenty of good role-models. They just aren't popular with the kids. Kids love immature people.

Edited April 22 by Leo Gura

[Alexop]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

That's true. European leaders are definitely more mature than Andrew Tate (generally), but NOT being Andrew Tate doesn't necessarily make a person "wise" either (relatively speaking).

Exactly, children are getting taught things that most politically active people think it is right. That will influence the academic world. If universities don't comply with what the government believes, they can get their licence withdrawn or whatever. When most politically active people think we are all the same and femininity & masculinity are conservative crap we have to get rid of, then you get that nuthead from Iceland separating girls and boys in kindergarden and teaching them different stuff. 

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Okay, but how do we make sure that such people end up at the top of this field? A lot of men for example gravitate to personalities such as Andrew Tate and Donald Trump

Society hates masculine men who are unapologetically masculine. The only masculine figures left in the world are these sex traffickers and rapists.

And no, not there aren't others who qualify as masculine, enough, at least in the public influenzer realm. So people like Trump and Tate provide an outlet for the pent up masculine energy.  That is what enables there people to have a huge following on social media. It is not an accident.

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

We have plenty of good role-models. They just aren't popular with the kids. Kids love immature people.

To put it simply, they are not masculine enough to inspire young men.

Edited April 22 by Bobby_2021

[Adrian colby]

I don’t know if this is of any help but I have identified as a boy/man and male for the majority of my life. In the beginning I was believing what I was told by my parents, peers, culture but something kicked in around 5 years old that didn’t reflect everyone identifying me as a girl. It was persistent and severely distressing so I was treated in my teens when I was finally referred to a clinic after years of therapists, psychiatrists ending in a suicide attempt. My ‘feelings’ turned out to have a biological basis. Although I looked female, I had gonadal disgenesis which wasn’t known till my teens when I was tested for disorders during my diagnosis process. I participated in a study in 2014 that showed I had a mutation in one of my genes that is typical of males but not females. It cannot currently be tested but I speculate my BNSTi in my hypothalamus falls into the male range as this is what is seen in brain autopsy studies of transgenders. There is an argument over neurological studies as the standard deviation and error bars issue in the research methodology shows too much overlap between the sexes but a recent development by a professor Menon ( Stanford university) taught an AI with large American and European samples of ‘cis’ gendered male and female brains by fMRI and identified three regions that seem to be sex specific. When the AI was used to identify the next set of scans, it identified whether the person was male or female ( as in they are both biologically and identify congruently) with above 90% accuracy. If the incorrect identifications are ironed out, or the reason possibly being these people are actually biologically variant but don’t know,  then this will end the statistical overlap argument and potentially be used as a diagnostic tool. 

( just for context, it was created as a tool to be used for helping diagnose neurological disorders that are sex specific. There has been no use of the method on trans but the software is available for anyone who should like to do this)

having gone through awakening, I know I am ‘awareness’ and both identity and the perception of the body and all things in the objective universe are a construction of the mind.

but if I were to come back into this ‘character or avatar’ that I’m experiencing I would say that it contains biological attributes of both sexes that in whatever combination or whichever attribute is predominant, expresses as a male gender.

I as this avatar am not male or female but both. Whichever factor was predominant is what has swayed me to go to conformity within the societal expectation of a male/man. I do not identify as trans and do not engage with the lgbt community. I got my treatment and reintegrated back into the society I came from.( I believe a lot of problem stem from the creation of trans as an identity rather than a description of a biological variant)

while my body ( as does everyone’s) contains dimorphic structures that can change to either male or female via chemical triggers( secondary characteristic), anything that required physical development during gestation has been surgically altered to the best of a surgeons ability so my superficial, bodily appearance is male. While I can orgasm I do not have the reproductive or hormonal production of either male or female and never have. That is managed artificially. 

My condition is invisible and doesn’t exist in day to day life. I fulfill my role as a man, a husband, a brother and a son and my condition doesn’t exist until I mention it and it forms in the mind of a person who is told. Pre conceived beliefs begin to be projected onto me and ‘their’ behavior changes. The reality was their direct experience prior to me telling them anything which was completely normal. After telling them, they start projecting their ideas onto me. This has prompted me to never talk about it for both my and the other persons sake. For me to create discomfort in a weak minded person who cannot control their own thoughts and resulting behavior would not be very conscious of me so I no longer do it. Since dissolving the ego somewhat there is no need or feeling to justify my identification. It just is. 
 

if this stuff is to be taught to young children then it should be approached holistically encompassing not just variations but the two binaries between which that spectrum appears. All of it needs to be taught with equal importance. Sexual Biology ‘is’ binary in a human and that is the male or female deviation of a dimorphic structure of which there are many in the body. Multiple simplex binary structures can all be coherent or sometimes incoherent causing complex variants we see as the many emergent genders.

thats only one explanation but we can’t forget there is the purely psychological recognition of social constructs and those who loosen themselves from that regardless of the biological underlying attributes. both exist.
 

Everything we know is highly complex and emergent from a simplex unity. the complexity of our culture and the understanding of biology and our higher psychological faculties is not something that can be taught to a child. We only know these things from having gone through all these experiences, overcoming our animalistic reactions and becoming more aware of our cognitive functions, studying, contemplating and regaining mastery over them. 
 

perhaps it would be better to teach children awareness and awareness of complexity instead of trying to break the complexity appart to save them from the experiences they inherently have to go through to learn?

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, Alexop said:

Sweden the big mamma of gender equality has made considerable efforts to equalize the gender gap in professions, but the result was the opposite, the gap is even bigger in Scandinavia than in more traditional countries.

lmao...

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

An important part of this course would be teaching teens how to distinguish between healthy and toxic forms of masculinity and femininity

Will they include any politically incorrect stuff? Like legitimate masculinity will be a little toxic, confrontational, competitive and direct.

Will they teach that? Because that will not be egalitarian. Academia can only teach politically correct stuff. Survival has many politically incorrect stuff.

Also the first question I will ask my teacher would be "What is a woman?" The answer would be enough to end the course.

Edited April 22 by Bobby_2021

[Yimpa]

Here is an example of a conservative father who opened his mind and heart after his son came out as transgender:

This goes to show that not all conservatives are close-minded and extremely ideological with their worldview. The son taught the father well.

[BlueOak]

As always and with everything, people look at 10% (or, in this case 1%) of people and then say there are not enough role models. There are not enough men/women to date.

There are tens of millions of average working men that we could use as examples in my country alone. The average is not enough for people. They need a weightlifter who is a billionaire and dates five women at the same time to take notice. That isn't masculinity, that's a cartoon character or caricature to get your attention. It also doesn't help the average person because they are so far removed from them, regardless of ideology or beliefs.

[Alexop]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Will they include any politically incorrect stuff? Like legitimate masculinity will be a little toxic, confrontational, competitive and direct.

Healthy masculinity is not toxic, using violence in appropriate contexts is not toxic. Slitting the throats of some nazis who invaded your country is still healthy masculinity.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

To put it simply, they are not masculine enough to inspire young men.

No. To put it simply, young men are baboons.

[Alexop]

5 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Here is an example of a conservative father who opened his mind and heart after his son came out as transgender:

 

Nice one, so it seems you can transtion later in life and still be happy also.

[Bobby_2021]

16 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

So it's not that society "hates" masculine men,

They may not be overtly explicit in their intent, but if it looks like the actions they take are suppressing my masculinity, they hate masculinity at least from my pov.