Gender Fluidity should be an Adult topic

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, kray said:

There are only two genders: male and female. 

Yes, and there are only two colors…. Black and White 

[Yimpa]

In countries that are not well developed, it is true that only 2 genders exist. These countries can’t even bring clean water to their people and a host of other survival needs, so the discussion and exploration about gender is of no priority.

Edited April 21 by Yimpa

[Nivsch]

Psychologically there is no problem at all with a dynamic identification and tasting and experimenting with both worlds, but as long as it comes to changing the gender of your body, you have to think hundreds times and wait until your decision is set in stone in your mind for a long period of time (years in a row) before you do any irreversible procedures and disrupt your natural form and hormonalic delicate balance, on that issue it is better to be quite conservative.

Edited April 21 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@kray

1 hour ago, kray said:

There are only two genders: male and female. Instead of brainwashing kids with this shitty identity politics, maybe we should teach them how to find their life purpose. Let who you want to fuck/what you think of yourself be your own battle. 

   I agree, brainwashing kids that early is creepy. All they need to be taught at that age about gender and sex is fun bags are fun to play with, and real sword fighting is dangerous. Don't be obnoxious and demand others to call you whatever you want to be called, maybe drink more lactose free milk, eat a bit more veggies, do some martial arts, play dribbles with more fun bags, IDK be children instead of this ABC language fluidity of gender. Children need more orange juice and fluids that help their body and mind grow instead of fluid semantic games other adult children indoctrinating them can point to and feel false sense of achievement, the confusion they make is something to be proud of.

[Yimpa]

Let’s teach kids like this:

 

[Alexop]

I'd have a conservative approach, even the most educated parents still don't really undertand how to find your authentic self. There is a risk that even the childs parents don't really know who the hell they are. There is so much to learn and contemplate here. There has to be real intellectuals and experts who need to deal with that, not some ideological parents and politicians. Gender is a social construct but I identify as a "man" because this construction fits my looks, biology, hormone dynamics, personality, sexual orientation.  Kids just look for appreciation and love, if they get love by identifying as a punker, they will become a punker and adopt those looks. If their friends will love them more by being bisexual then they will do that. Be open-minded but be carful so that your brains don't fall off.

[BlueOak]

Letting kids find out who they are is the job of parents and schools, not telling them who to be.

It's wonderful if your life is how you want it. It's not your job to tell your child who they are. The best you can do is guide them to themselves constantly, not to others, not to groups, not to trends, not to you, but to them. All life becomes finding that out, then living it, so give them a head start rather than cripple them from the beginning.

@Yimpa
Some days, you give me hope

For whatever its worth, if you ever raise a kid, there'll be a fortunate soul.
 

 

[Basman]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But many parents are transphobic and closedminded so kids cannot get help from them.

RIP I guess. Stuck in the in-between the age of questioning gender constructs and the older population not really giving a shit. Just bad RNG.

I know certain people will get upset at the notion of calling being trans a mental illness because it'll come of as dismissing their identity but I do think your life is automatically harder from the get-go. How is that unlike a mental illness? You suffer just from having the body you born with, disease not withstanding.

[Danioover9000]

@Basman

2 hours ago, Basman said:

RIP I guess. Stuck in the in-between the age of questioning gender constructs and the older population not really giving a shit. Just bad RNG.

I know certain people will get upset at the notion of calling being trans a mental illness because it'll come of as dismissing their identity but I do think your life is automatically harder from the get-go. How is that unlike a mental illness? You suffer just from having the body you born with, disease not withstanding.

   True. Main difference with that not being a mental illness is the consequences of that label. If Transgender is considered a mental illness worldwide, then there's pressure to have institutions to house and treat such mental illnesses, which the traditionalists/conservatives are happy to try and actualize state wide. However, if Transgender is not a mental illness, and they still make institutes to house trans as mentally ill people, then just like with how the conservatives did the gay therapy conversions they'll try to do to Trans and eventually other LGBTQ groups. The real issue is what percentage is actually mentally ill versus not, and another issue is false conflation and generalization by right wing onto those minority groups.

[Danioover9000]

@DefinitelyNotARobot

2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@Bobby_2021 I'm not saying that a transwoman is a woman. I'm saying that a transwoman is a transwoman. But what does it mean to be trans? Let me lay my view out for you.

As I've said, there is an overlap between gender and sex, but there are ways in which they can be differentiated. Let's look at breasts for example. Men can go through hormone therapy and develop breasts naturally, but these breasts are structurally different from the breasts of a biological woman. Breasts can manifest in both women and men, but only women have full access to their utility (if we ignore women with some kind of genetic malfunction). So I agree in that a man can't be a woman, because we can't restructure our bodies to carry out the same tasks.

However, that's where I draw a line between a man/woman and a transman/transwoman. There are biological aspects, such as the chromosomes of a person, which you don't have immediate access to. A friend of mine (super anti-trans) almost landed in bed with a transwoman, which traumatized the hell out of him. How did that happen? Well, when you see a woman on the street, how do you actually know that she's a woman? You use certain markers, such as her feminine shape/face/voice/mannerisms etc. to differentiate her from a man.

There are a lot of trans people where it's obvious that they're trans, but that doesn't go for all transpeople. Sometimes you'd need to pay close attention to know the difference. I think it's easier with transwoman than with transman, probably because I'm attracted to woman and as such have a radar for when "something" feels off (which is why I used transmen as an example), but how can I be certain that my radar is always 100% accurate? I can't. Maybe it will trigger for an actual woman, maybe it won't trigger for a transwoman. Here is a personal annectode.

I was once in the Netherlands with a bunch of friends (the same friend from earlier was also with us actually) and we were tripping on shrooms. We were sitting in the middle of a busy street, full of people partying and dancing, and... Well there is a huge LGBTQ community in the Netherlands, and so there were a lot of transpeople. We were sitting there and constantly debating about who was a real woman and who wasn't. One of my friends would call out a hot girl and another would say: "Bro, I think that's a guy." and the other friend would say "NO that can't be a guy look at her!". It just went on for ages. In that moment I realized that there are certain aspects of "being a woman" that don't necessarily coincide with their biological nature. If there was a 1/1 correlation, it would be easy to tell who is and who isn't a woman.

1 = green

2 = red

What number does red correlate to?

Not a difficult task right?

So how can anyone ever be wrong about someone's biological sex, if sex == gender? You would see a person and you'd immediately know their sex, but that's not the case, because what you have immediate access to is mostly gender.

This is more of an abstract argument, this isn't even concerned with social ideas such as what being a "REAL man" means, which are a more obvious form of gender, because people are more likely to disagree on that than they are to disagree on how many genders there are.

Here is a simplified "graph" of my idea. It's a real bad graph. Sorry for that.

The fact that you can't perfectly differentiate between sex in gender is actually something a lot of progressives seem to misunderstand. They understand the relativity of gender, but they don't understand the relativity of their own dissections. The graph I've provided is a rather arbitrary way to dissect sex and gender. It's just there to demonstrate that we can conceive of sex and gender as two things, while keeping our definitions of "man" and "woman" around. Gender being relative doesn't invalidate anyone that wants to live a traditional lifestyle. There are transgender people who will say that you have to fully accept them as a "woman", but I disagree with them.

   Little critique of your graph here is the genotype column, which should contain not masculine/feminine word, but male/female words instead. Male and female are words that are strictly defined to sex biology and male/female bodies mostly, with exception to intersex and androgyny/trans. This is important because if anyone does not define masculine/feminine words properly, and use masculine/feminine to refer traits, to energy, to vibe, to even nature of mind, and mix them with sex biology and traditional gender roles then massive confusion will happen.  

[Chadders]

@Extreme Z7 Sure that is a mature position. Kids need structure and stability. They also need consciousness and spiritual wisdom not layers of fabricated identity

 

[Leo Gura]

I have a solution that might be workable.

Teach kids about gender fluidity, but also make them take a class called Masculinity & Femininity. This class would teach kids how to embody masculine and feminine energy.

The problem with gender fluid ideology is that it does not actually teach kids how to embody being masculine or feminine, or how to figure out which way is best for them.

Kids need to be taught 3 things: masculinity, femininity, and non-binary. Then they can choose.

Edited April 22 by Leo Gura

[Hojo]

@kray

11 hours ago, kray said:

There are only two genders: male and female. Instead of brainwashing kids with this shitty identity politics, maybe we should teach them how to find their life purpose. Let who you want to fuck/what you think of yourself be your own battle. 

Dualities break down to the same thing. God created a hermaphrodite. And one of them has guaranteed had sex with itself and dirty talked to itself. What gender is that, when a hermaphrodite has sex with itself? Is that God gender and the ultimate goal of human civilization?

Contemplate this.

Edited April 22 by Hojo

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Teach kids about gender fluidity, but also make them take a class called Masculinity & Femininity. This class would teach kids how to embody masculine and feminine energy.

Teaching = indoctrination. Whether be it masculinity or femininity or non-binary. Kids are not mature enough to understand any of this.

A 90 minute football match out in the sun will teach kids more about masculinity than cramming them up in a classroom and pumping this bullshit into their heads.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Teaching = indoctrination.

No. That's precisely what teaching is not.

Quote

Kids are not mature enough to understand any of this.

Of course they are. The truth is that adults are not mature enough to teach it to them.

[Bobby_2021]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The truth is that adults are not mature enough to teach it to them.

Then do not teach them. OR find those mature adults and then talk about this idealism. 

I am talking about practicality. In practice, it ends up being indoctrination. There is no point arguing in idealism.

The Truth is that masculinity will arise organically as long as you do not suppress it. Let kids play out in the open. Let them be competitive and explore it for themselves. Schools should be giving them avenues for exploration & action. The schools are anti masculine the moment you cram boys into a class room and lecture them about cultural bullshit. 

[Alexop]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have a solution that might be workable.

Teach kids about gender fluidity, but also make them take a class called Masculinity & Femininity. This class would teach kids how to embody masculine and feminine energy.

The problem with gender fluid ideology is that it does not actually teach kids how to embody being masculine or feminine, or how to figure out which way is best for them.

Kids need to be taught 3 things: masculinity, femininity, and non-binary. Then they can choose.

Exactly this is what I was contemplating! They tell them all this queer ideology but they don't mention masculinity and femininity, they try to erase them. I saw how in Iceland they were separating girls form the boys and teaching boys how to be more sensitive and girls how to be stronger.

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am talking about practicality.

What I said is practical. It's not hard to make a course on Masculinity & Femininity and teach it across the country. The only obstacle is the political will. Such a course is badly needed and eventually it will be taught.

Empty whining and debate on this issue doesn't actually solve anything. What I said is a real solution and you could even get bipartisan support for it because it is so common sense and simple.

Edited April 22 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

7 minutes ago, Alexop said:

I saw how in Iceland they were separating girls form the boys and teaching boys how to be more sensitive and girls how to be stronger.

Do you have any source that sheds light on how this takes place in practice?

How does those boys even know what it means to be more sensitive? I heard they even make boys pee while sitting down and more buffoonery of the same sort.

You do not become stronger because your teacher told you so lmao..

Edited April 22 by Bobby_2021

[Alexop]

@Leo Gura DId you read Beyond Mars and Venus? Do you agree with John Gray's hormone theories?