Israel is being attacked

[zazen]

@Nivsch Romanism = The aspiration to establish a Roman state in the land they had sovereignty in the past (Israel /Palestine for 400 years)

Ottomanism = The aspiration to establish a Ottoman state in the land they had sovereignty in the past (also Israel/Palestine for 400 years)

Its not just the value of something by itself, but the cost of it that matters. We can value aspirations, and they may be fine and good as they stand alone - but when the cost of these nationalistic aspirations means the extermination of another groups identity, expulsion of them from the land, and occupation and subjugation of those that remain - that is a cost too high. That cost includes backlash and 'resistance' which includes terroristic elements, Israel is paying this cost till today including the cost of alienating itself from the world.

Saying Zionism is noble and good and any critique of it is bad or misunderstood can miss the point and fine line where Zionism becomes Ultra-Zionism - a more extremist fundamentalist version of itself. Because the lines are blurred, many Zionists have and hold Ultra-Zionist talking points and positions without realising it.

'Normal' Israeli's criticise Netanyahu while remaining unified in their governments support for unleashing Hiroshima-level destructive force on Gaza. The polls show majority of Israelis didn't think Israel went hard enough on Gaza - after dropping multiple Hiroshimas worth of bombs on a strip of land a 3rd of the size, and much more populated. They exclaim to care for the hostages (which they use like a smoke screen for their ulterior agenda) - yet rain down dumb bombs on exactly where their beloved hostages are held. 

Defending Ultra-Zionism is like defending a workplace bully who's aspiration is to climb the corporate ladder at any cost. He cuts lines, takes credit for others work, shoves children and steals seats on the bus from the elderly on his way to work so he can suck up to his boss and get brownie points. Its one thing to have aspirations, it's another to execute them at any cost.

 

Edited April 20 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

   Jeez, these 2 are out of their depth against Bassem Youssef:

 

[Vrubel]

@zazen You can criticize aspects and expressions of Zionism but non-Zionism is not a viable option for the Jewish people given context and stark reality. Jews have to fight for their right to exist a little harder than most peoples. That's why I am a Zionist. I also say it to take the word back so to speak because it has become a darling word of anti-semites and far-left extremists. 

Edited April 20 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

7 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

You can criticize aspects and expressions of Zionism but non-Zionism is not a viable option for the Jewish people given context and stark reality. Jews have to fight for their right to exist a little harder than most peoples. That's why I am a Zionist. I also say it to take the word back so to speak because it has become a darling word of anti-semites and far-left extremists. 

Pardon my ignorance but what I have seen there were many jews in the region before Israel and there were little to no skirmishes. They started in late 18th century when Zionism was first invented. Before, for centuries, Jews were treated in Middle East FAR better than anywhere else. They lived side by side for centuries in relative peace and harmony.

Now they are hated like hell. How did Zionism exactly benefit the Jew/Arab/Muslim relationship?

 

Edited April 20 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

5 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@zazen You can criticize aspects and expressions of Zionism but non-Zionism is not a viable option for the Jewish people given context and stark reality. Jews have to fight for their right to exist a little harder than most peoples. That's why I am a Zionist. I also say it to take the word back so to speak because it has become a darling word of anti-semites and far-left extremists. 

   Actually you don't have to be a Zionist Israeli to fight for your right to exist, just as the Americans didn't have to be Fascist/Nazi to fight off Nazi Germany. You are conflating both Zionist identity as being Israeli as if the 2 are 1 when that's purely false assome portions of Israel are not Zionist and are left leaning.

[Bobby_2021]

We as a society should stop glorifying victimhood. They will eventually end up being the biggest pricks. Self proclaimed victims have inflicted the most death and destruction to humanity.

Any amount of damages they do to society is justified because they had a terrible past.

Edited April 20 by Bobby_2021

[Vrubel]

26 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Pardon my ignorance but what I have seen there were many jews in the region before Israel and there were little to no skirmishes. They started in late 18th century when Zionism was first invented. Before, for centuries, Jews were treated in Middle East FAR better than anywhere else. They lived side by side for centuries in relative peace and harmony.

Now they are hated like hell. How did Zionism exactly benefit the Jew/Arab/Muslim relationship?

 

If you're a minority in the Middle East your life is beyond volatile. Can you imagine still having Jews in Yemen, Iraq or Syria. Those people would get massacred by extremists or riff-raff mobs. As soon as you do something that upsets the sunni majority they will go after you. This is no joke. Ask the Assyrians, Kurds, Yazidi's etc. The Shia and Sunni are also constantly at each other's throats. 

You cannot blame on Israel that in Iraq for example they had horrendous massacres of Jews and expelled them. Ironically this expulsion of Jews by Arabs ended up the best thing that ever happened to Israel because Israel took them in and they massively uplifted the country.

 

26 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How did Zionism exactly benefit the Jew/Arab/Muslim relationship?

Israeli Arabs are fine with Israel. 

But the benefits of Zionism is immeasurable. I mean have you seen Israel? Middle Eastern cuisine, Western norms and world class economy. A society of Jews but insanely diverse with all kinds of minorities and a decent amount of hot Russian women in summer clothes.

Edited April 20 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

If you're a minority in the Middle East your life is beyond volatile. Can you imagine still having Jews in Yemen, Iraq or Syria. Those people would get massacred by extremists or riff-raff mobs. As soon as you do something that upsets the sunni majority they will go after you. This is no joke.

So in countries like UAE Qatar Saudi etc it is like that? Not war torn countries please. Those are bad whether you are Jew or not. It is not a function of you being a jew, it is a function of the country being in chaos. It is not safe for Muslims too.

6 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

You cannot blame on Israel that in Iraq for example they had horrendous massacres of Jews and expelled them. Ironically this expulsion of Jews by Arabs ended up the best thing that ever happened to Israel because Israel took them in. 

I saw this happened in 1948 after the Nakba. I am talking about the period before 1900 when Zionism did not exist. Were there massacres large scale often for hundreds of years against jews? If yes, can you send me some sources. Like polgrom style. Skirmishes can always happen, it happened even within Sunnis. So my fundamental question is, was your life as a Jews much worse than a Muslim in the Middle East before 1900?

 

6 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israeli Arabs are fine with Israel. 

But the benefits of Zionism is immeasurable. I mean have you seen Israel? Middle Eastern cuisine, Western norms and world class economy. A society of Jews but insanely diverse with all kinds of minorities and a decent amount of hot Russian women.

Sounds to me like a mob boss killing dozens and building a manson there where his family lives in luxury. Sure, life is good for them there. But that good life is built on others blood and oppression of millions that already happens. If 9 million Jews live good lives at the expense of life for 7 million Palestinians being far worse because of it, to me that is not a win. It is super biased. 

But ok, you made your point. Life for Jews is better in Israel. Thanks for your reponse.

To me Zionism seems like a response of European oppression of Jews which was indeed a horrible thing, not of Arab oppression. Basically it feels like Arab Muslims are paying the price of the crimes commited by the Europeans towards Jews for a long time. Which is why if the world wanted to be truly fair, they would have created Israel in Germany and kick out the Germans in that piece of land. Much more fitting. But just my opinion.

Edited April 20 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

So in countries like UAE Qatar Saudi etc it is like that? Not war torn countries please. Those are bad whether you are Jew or not. It is not a function of you being a jew, it is a function of the country being in chaos. It is not safe for Muslims too

Most Jews lived in places like Iraq, Syria and Yemen. Qatar and Saudi had virtually no Jews.

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I saw this happened in 1948 after the Nakba. I am talking about the period before 1900 when Zionism did not exist. Were there massacres large scale often for hundreds of years against jews? If yes, can you send me some sources. Like polgrom style. Skirmishes can always happen, it happened even within Sunnis. So my fundamental question is, was your life as a Jews much worse than a Muslim in the Middle East before 1900?

As soon as the social order crumbles the slightest, shit hits the fan in the Middle East. The potential for barbarity against minorieties is and was always there. 

 

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Sounds to me like a mob boss killing dozens and building a manson there where his family lives in luxury. Sure, life is good for them there. But that good life is built on others blood and oppression of millions that already happens. If 9 million Jews live good lives at the expense of life for 7 million Palestinians being far worse because of it, to me that is not a win. It is super biased. 

You asked for the benefits. I am not apologizing for Zionism saving the Jewish people. This conflict must be resolved I agree with that as well. 

Edited April 20 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel So why was Israel made on such a barbaric and violate part of the world as you call it.

Considering it was the Europeans that treated Jews horribly for millenia, it is their job to give them land.

THEIR land.

I think if Israel was made somewhere in Europe, this whole bullshit would have been avoided.

There were many candidates to make Israel and they choose arguably the part of the world that had treated Jews the softest.

This is why I fundamentally find it so unfair.

It is not that I am against an Israeli state per say, but I would be much more in favor of it being at the expense of countries that hurt Jews like Germany, Austria, Italy, Hungary etc instead of countries that were relatively nice to Jews.

What do you think?

Also USA could have been an option but USA was never involved in Jews massacres so that would also feel somewhat unfair imo.

Personally if Israel was made in one of the German lands like Bavaria (Hitler's origin), I would probably be much more supportive of Israel.

Seems to me like Europe wanted to apologize to Jews for what it did to them but not give them their own land, so they just put them in the Middle East which they controlled at the time. So I feel like they are the victims here, forced to pay for someone else crimes.

 

Edited April 20 by Karmadhi

[numbersinarow]

On 4/14/2024 at 1:29 AM, Karmadhi said:

Iran has the right to defend itself  

Not the natural right if we look at it so far, every missile was shot down except ones that barely accomplished anything.

[Karmadhi]

1 minute ago, numbersinarow said:

Not the natural right if we look at it so far, every missile was shot down except ones that barely accomplished anything.

I was being sarcastic since that is the justification Israel uses to commit genocide 

[Bobby_2021]

9 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

Not the natural right if we look at it so far, every missile was shot down except ones that barely accomplished anything.

They weren't intended to spill blood. Inspite of it, quite a few landed more than the IDF would publicly admit.

Israel - US - UK - Germany spent 1.2B a night to defend a couple million worth of cheap ass old drones and missiles. Iran also got vital intel on how the air defence capabilities work. So the next strike is going to be even more well coordinated.

This is not a war the Israel can sustain at any cost. Not to mention how it's going to be if US isn't going to come to it's rescue. But the US will come to rescue anyway.

Israel has an impression that they are untouchables. Iran showed they are not with maturity and restraint.

They even informed them in advance of all their moves indirectly via Turkey.

Class from Mullahs.

Edited April 20 by Bobby_2021

[zazen]

@Bobby_2021 Good analysis. A narrative you’ll never hear in the West lol. Iran can produce these missiles like cigars. They penetrated Israel’s two most sensitive and highly defended air bases and sites.

Westerners and ultra-Zionists can keep thinking the escalatory actions of their states make them ‘safer’ if they wish. This wasn’t intended to be destructive by Iran but demonstrative - yet it’s spun as an Israeli victory, the same way Ukraine was led down its path by hubristic blindness on part of the vested interests.

Edited April 20 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@Bobby_2021 Be careful with showing so much emotions to this cruel regime. But I can understand that too. The bad guy is often more attractive, at least from the first glance

Edited April 20 by Nivsch

[Bobby_2021]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

Iran can produce these missiles like cigars. They penetrated Israel’s two most sensitive and highly defended air bases and sites.

Yep. They are accurate upto 10 meters built in with the technology to fool the iron dome radar algorithms.

And these weapons are their worst ones in their cabin. Israel wouldn't be able to handle their most advanced weapons which they have a lot.

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

A narrative you’ll never hear in the West lol.

Anyone with two braincells can see the western narrative is crumbling fast. Their hypocrisy is laid out bare naked for the world to see.

I don't think the common people in the west are that dumb. They are seeing the game here, which is hard to ignore, even for the Americans.

10 minutes ago, zazen said:

Westerners and ultra-Zionists can keep thinking the escalatory actions of their states make them ‘safer’ if they wish.

Israel defensive policy is escalatory in nature. 

Anyone who is the slightest threat to us should be levelled and we will escalate it to the max. Of course we would need help from the US and NATO to defend ourselves against a sanctioned regime.

Just imagine if Russia joins Iran for some good times.

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

This wasn’t intended to be destructive by Iran but demonstrative

And it was brilliantly executed.

[Bobby_2021]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Bobby_2021 Be careful with showing so much emotions to this cruel regime. But I can understand that too. The bad guy is often more attractive, at least from the first glance

What do you mean? I love 🇮🇱 

[Yimpa]

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” -Matthew 5:43–44

[zazen]

Each groups narrative of home and heritage fuels a cycle of conflict. Words are imbued with the power of the histories they carry, and the word Zionism for the Jews symbolises hope but for the Palestinians is one loaded with the weight of the Nakba and continuous displacement adding to that load till today. That’s why people react to it negatively - not because of what it envisaged or started but because of how it started and what is done in its name till today.

What is sanctuary to one is stolen soil to another. Israelis have to face the fact that the safe haven they constructed for themselves out of necessity is neither safe nor a haven as long as it exiles the natives in the process. The process of their return is engineered top down with the help of colonial powers at the time (and maintained by their help today) - rather than a grassroots movement that comes more organically and naturally to the local habitat. 

The implementation of Zionism has evolved into an imposition, a structure forcibly embedded rather than naturally emerging within the local environment it seeks to inhabit. This imposition destroys Palestinian life at its worst and disrupts daily life for Palestinians at its best by making the mundane tasks of life into the militant. When traveling to work, visiting family and farming ancestral land is consistently militarized with checkpoints and surveillance, the response from those under it naturally escalates against this humiliation. Militant conditions can expect militant reactions.

Edited April 20 by zazen

[BlessedLion]

Israel is a monster