A World WITHOUT Money | Thought Experiment

[ryoko]

13 hours ago, aurum said:

I'm all for people doing whatever their heart desires at the moment.

By this I also implied, people are free to live with their current level of development.

But at the same time, I'm touching a very nuanced point here. The reason Spiral Dynamics is the way it is; all the stages and the different characteristics is precisely because of our past and current "environment" and  "values". Spiral Dynamics will be totally different if humans took a different developmental path, then it wouldn't be human anymore. An alien species will have a totally different type of evolutionary path.

I have no doubts that changing and evolving this current state is gonna require enormous amount of energy, to be precise, at least 3 times the energy of all those conditionings, it's not just the mind, it's everything we see around us, it's the lifestyle, the diseases, the media, books, all of the impact created by humans who are here currently and those who have come before us. We need 3 times more energy than all that combined, in the right direction to make it a reality. 2/5th of it is to destroy the current conditionings, rest is hopefully to build a new direction. But as this happens, humans will have turned into an entirely different species from what we know today. This is not something a small group of humans can achieve. Also, it's ugly, forcing humans into something else.. the resistance in humans will likely kill many in the process. Unless, there is a big threat which forces humans to evolve or die.

And this, doesn't motivate me in the slightest. I think all the current limitations and flawed direction of development humans are taking, is "perfectly" expected.. no need to alter it in the slightest. like you said, it is what it is, out of consequence, not by chance.

[Ishanga]

On 4/12/2024 at 1:11 AM, aurum said:

I actually went to visit the Venus Project and got a tour. As far as I can tell, it has been a complete failure.

It broke my heart really. Jacque and his partner essentially devoted their entire adult lives to making that project a reality, and they have almost nothing to show for it. And they seemed like genuine people who wanted to do good.

Of course, it's possible that Jacque's work will be rediscovered. Or perhaps his ideas will inspire someone else in the future. But I would be wary of chasing these utopian dreams. You might just end up spending your whole life on a dead end.

I wouldn't say it is Utopian to want to have everyone supplied with their basic needs, plus compared to what we have today, we need grand ideas and ways of doing things that are very different from what is happening now, if things don't change soon this world will not be recognizable in 10=15yrs on so many levels...

Jacques ideas didn't gain much momentum because the Consciousness level of the general public is still very low, ppl think Life is outside of themselves, that is why they are constantly search for it, but its inside of all of us, we just have to find it and have a way to do so, when that happens on a larger scale then Venus Project ideas will come about more easily, until then lots of suffering will be had...

[jimwell]

On 4/12/2024 at 6:54 AM, Ishanga said:

Jacques Fresco already invented this idea, a world without Money, a different sort of society where AI controls the resources so that all get what they need and there is no lack in the world, its basic idea but very cool imo...

Very cool indeed. Fresco was a very intelligent man and a true revolutionary. 

I think his vision will materialize. The only question is when. Just look at the current development of AI and robotics; it's already amazing and magical.

 

On 4/12/2024 at 11:53 AM, ryoko said:

As long as you're not cool with the idea of everyone doing nothing, this world have no chance of materializing.

You should have said "As long as you're  not cool with the idea of everyone doing nothing, this world have no chance of materializing."

Who will farm, fish, and cook to satisfy your hunger? Yes, eventually AI robot will do the slave labor. But as of now, we need to work. 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 1:11 PM, aurum said:

Of course, it's possible that Jacque's work will be rediscovered. Or perhaps his ideas will inspire someone else in the future. But I would be wary of chasing these utopian dreams. You might just end up spending your whole life on a dead end.

Fresco was not a failure, and his work is NOT useless. His vision and work provide the north star for humans.  

[aurum]

13 hours ago, ryoko said:

By this I also implied, people are free to live with their current level of development.

That is not at all what you implied with your original post.

Your original post:

"This world here isn't interested in hoarding anything, people are free to do anything, but alone. The goal is that one doesn't interfere or even passively impact the other. There is no need to earn money, or even contribute to the society, you can live a perfectly good life, doing nothing. Infact doing nothing is the norm, it is the best thing to do. Activity is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Flowering of an individual's true nature is celebrated."

^^^This is only possible at a high level of development.

Otherwise if everyone is free to live at any level of development, then slavery needs to be allowed. Slavery not only exists at a certain level of development, it's assumed to be a good thing.

Are you going to argue slavery is not a contradiction with your vision? Of course it's a contradiction. Because you are advocating for a society that can fundamentally only exist at a high level of development.

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

I wouldn't say it is Utopian to want to have everyone supplied with their basic needs, plus compared to what we have today, we need grand ideas and ways of doing things that are very different from what is happening now, if things don't change soon this world will not be recognizable in 10=15yrs on so many levels...

What's utopian is to not understand how far away we are from something like Jacque described. 

[aurum]

1 hour ago, jimwell said:

Fresco was not a failure, and his work is NOT useless. His vision and work provide the north star for humans.  

I wouldn't say it's useless. I think his best contributions were actually his engineering projects.

He might have been better off sticking to engineering and staying away from economics / government. He was a good engineer, that was his strength.

As far as his work providing the North Star for humans, I'd say that's debatable. Very few people actually even know who he is or anything about his work. It's way too fringe because it's totally impractical from a policy perspective.

Maybe in 100 years that will change.

[ryoko]

4 hours ago, aurum said:

Are you going to argue slavery is not a contradiction with your vision? Of course it's a contradiction. Because you are advocating for a society that can fundamentally only exist at a high level of development.

4 hours ago, aurum said:

That is not at all what you implied with your original post.

Don't confuse the vision for the process, the vision is strictly a world where people "have" evolved, by whatever means necessary, it's more like the end result.

The process is what I implied when I said, people are free to live on their level of development, for as long as necessary.

 

[ryoko]

6 hours ago, jimwell said:

You should have said "As long as you're  not cool with the idea of everyone doing nothing, this world have no chance of materializing."

Ever wondered what the default state of a person is? it's death. It's not activity. you are alive for let's say 100 years, what are you for the rest of the trillion years?

Do you think you'll get to such a world by operating the same way the current world thinks?

[aurum]

12 hours ago, ryoko said:

Don't confuse the vision for the process, the vision is strictly a world where people "have" evolved, by whatever means necessary, it's more like the end result.

The process is what I implied when I said, people are free to live on their level of development, for as long as necessary.

 

Fair enough, perhaps I jumped the gun and assumed too much.

My only real critique of your vision was timeline and expectations. If those things are in check, then I have no issues.

 

[tvaeli]

The world, where only karma matters, is too creative - you have to be creative about it every single moment.

Money is a machine, it runs on it's own. You don't have to be a karma genius to understand it. It's an intellectual, rational thing, which is driven by community force.

[Mulky]

I didn't read through every response but isn't the answer to how it would be possible be through AI, robotics, and other technology? I don't see a need for everyone to do Mahasamadhi. People can just learn to handle their own existence in this changing world where they are human-beings rather than human-doings. They can explore life and the universe after they overcome the difficulties that come with freedom to choose what they do with their time. 

It is funny when you look back at the past and see everyone's certainty that a type of change is not possible, and then it happens. Then you look around at the changes happening now and see how many people just can't wrap their heads around the completely new paradigm which is almost inevitable. 

Edited May 22, 2024 by Mulky

[tvaeli]

6 hours ago, Mulky said:

I didn't read through every response but isn't the answer to how it would be possible be through AI, robotics, and other technology? I don't see a need for everyone to do Mahasamadhi. People can just learn to handle their own existence in this changing world where they are human-beings rather than human-doings. They can explore life and the universe after they overcome the difficulties that come with freedom to choose what they do with their time. 

It is funny when you look back at the past and see everyone's certainty that a type of change is not possible, and then it happens. Then you look around at the changes happening now and see how many people just can't wrap their heads around the completely new paradigm which is almost inevitable. 

Money is very easy thing to calculate.

It's sure that with modern technology, we depend less on the money, but I'm not sure whether I want an AI to give me karmic points - and I think with material things, and operations with them, it's quite hard to avoid the appearance of single number. Not sure whether I want so complex theory, especially when an AI is judging every detail in my life.

But good point anyway, with AI we can have more complex measures than a single number.

[Mulky]

I think maybe we're just so used to number systems and currency that it's hard to wrap our minds around that not existing.