Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[SeaMonster]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:21 PM, Emerald said:

The actual root of the problem is that many men are pressured and/or perceive a pressure to match up to an impossible Masculine ideal. And this produces feelings of shame because no man can actually fully embody that ideal. And this produces an intense anxiety in men at any part of them that deviates from the Masculine and is seen as Feminine.

You have to look at this topic in a historical context.

Before the 1960s sexual revolution, second-wave feminism, and the breakdown of traditional gender roles, there wasn't a need for pickup artistry or the manosphere.

It's not so much about shame or pressure to match up to an impossible masculine ideal.   The issue is that women's liberation has ruptured the traditional mating market and created a lot of confusion which the manosphere has attempted to remedy.  The traditional approaches to dealing with women weren't working for men.

Before that time, young women primarily looked for a good provider to secure as a marriage partner.  After, women could afford to engage in years of unmarried sex before settling down at a later age.  The kind of men they favored for this were often different than what one would traditionally consider as a good marriage partner.

That's all it is.  The manosphere attempts to deal with that reality in a maximally advantageous manner for men by teaching them the skills to navigate this new environment.

It's simple adaptation.  Roughly speaking, women in the West don't want to marry until their late 20s or early 30s.  Of course any man who doesn't understand or willfully denies this reality is not going to be successful with women.  So unless men are "naturals" with women you get guys who either give up (such as blackpill) or adapt (PUA.)

Most women don't understand or care how the proverbial sausage is made.  They just see losers and winners and act accordingly.

Edited April 15 by SeaMonster

[Javfly33]

On 11/4/2024 at 9:50 PM, Emerald said:

.

The issue is that the expressions of these coping mechanisms sets off women's collective wounding around powerless. So, it's difficult for women to exercise compassion and to view these behaviors beyond a surface level. 

@Emerald interesting. What is womens collective wound? How It relates or differenciates from the collective shame wound of men?

[Ulax]

@Emerald You do any work with IFS therapy?

[CARDOZZO]

@Emerald Thanks for sharing!  

[bebotalk]

People enabling incels is the issue. 

they need mental re-orientation. 

[Ramanujan]

@Emerald

MIGTOW = get tired with feminism bullshit , and quit the game all together

RED PILL = get tired with feminism bullshit , but doesnt quit. they think the game is inevitable and they try to play the game

Incels = people with no ability to compete with chads and the top 20% men and call it quits

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Ramanujan

[BlueOak]

If you want something, getting together with people who don't have it is not going to help.

Many humans are a direct reflection of the expectations of their peer group. There is nobody to learn from in these communities, no role model, and nobody to take advice on success from. So in this scenario, these groups would be the places to avoid if you wanted sex, companionship, or anything meaningful with another person. 

Edited April 24 by BlueOak

[Emerald]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:08 PM, Javfly33 said:

@Emerald interesting. What is womens collective wound? How It relates or differenciates from the collective shame wound of men?

Women's collective wound is powerlessness.

[Emerald]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:54 PM, Ulax said:

@Emerald You do any work with IFS therapy?

I have a framework for Shadow Work that has similarities to IFS work, though I'm not super familiar with all the ins and outs of IFS.

[Breakingthewall]

On 9/4/2024 at 8:58 AM, Emerald said:

This 'men trying to match up to a Masculine ideal' dynamic is very obvious even at a cursory glance.

The problem with this is that it is not something cultural, a complex or something that must be fixed, it is something real, genetic, intrinsic to man. Man is programmed to face challenges, to be courageous, and if he is not at the level he will always feel diminished, lacking something. Man today lacks these challenges, masculinity is not necessary anymore, and man feels irrelevant, a pet, a shit. And this is translated to the relationship with women, where the man must give himself, and he find that what he has to give is not enough , then the man dont give, want to take from the women , like a baby

Edited May 2 by Breakingthewall

[Myagooshki]

On 4/9/2024 at 2:50 AM, Emerald said:

Sexual needs are also intricately woven into this dynamic.

But the fundamental toxicity of these groups doesn't foundationally come from unmet sexual needs... it comes foundationally from shame. And then that shame translates into more difficulties finding a sexual partner which aggravates and amplifies the whole shame dynamic.

There's also a dynamic where people are socializing less, which leads to more of a capacity to project onto the opposite sex. So, that must also be accounted for as an external factor.

But if you go into any Manosphere space... they aren't all gravitating there because they lack sex. (In fact, some men who hold this shame are having quite a lot of sex.) They are all gravitating there because they are all dealing with the same shame dynamic.

Edit: Also an important thing to keep in mind is that if it were just about lacking sex, then pickup would fix the dynamic. But it doesn't fix it because being unsuccessful with women is a symptom and not a root cause. And most men still externalize their sense of validity onto women even if they get good with getting sex. This is why pick-up communities can be just as toxic as any other manosphere space as it is usually men who feel shame gravitating together.

I'm liking a lot of what you are saying in this post. What do you recommend are some actionable steps to resolve the type of shame you're talking about?

[bebotalk]

if peolpe really wanted to help incels, they'd arrange mental health interventions. maybe they should have mandatory mental health counseillinf for all school kids. so even kids who aren' incels and get dates and sex can discuss issues confidentially.