Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

These kind of men probably receive validation very early. When I was at school some guys were getting laid at 13,14 those boys begun a cycle of always being involved with women and being validated, they never even had a chance to develop shame. While guys like myself have been stuck in an infinite cycle of peer and romantic rejection from childhood, how are you supposed to break that negative loop if you never get a chance.

All the self development and awareness means nothing if you never get a chance to show your positive qualities in a relationship, people are not islands we grow and gain confidence in relation to other people. This is the missing part of your excellent post which did resonate with me. Some men like myself are psychologically and emotionally broken beyond repair, it feels karmic as if I did something to deserve this in another life.

Along the same lines as the last post...

When I was in elementary and middle school, I was very unpopular and I got made fun of really often. And for years, I would try to formulate plans to get popular so that I could be accepted and get out of being such a social pariah.

And in middle school, I found a group of other outcasts to spend time with. And for about a year or so, we were collectively viewed as untouchables and highly unpopular.

But during this time, many of us really started to lean into what made us outcasts and what made us different. And this became part of the basis for our positive identities.

My friend Joe coined the term "nerd pride" and it really captured how I felt about it all.

So, instead of thinking about what caused me to be rejected as an indicator of my undesirability... instead I turned the tables and began viewing myself as different in a good way and that my nature is actually more interesting and cooler than the "normal people".

And this was a good first stepping stone into a positive self-concept.

The main thing is to take what you like least about yourself and to learn to celebrate it as what makes you special. Then you can be the phoenix that rises from your own ash.

[Tenebroso]

20 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Along the same lines as the last post...

When I was in elementary and middle school, I was very unpopular and I got made fun of really often. And for years, I would try to formulate plans to get popular so that I could be accepted and get out of being such a social pariah.

And in middle school, I found a group of other outcasts to spend time with. And for about a year or so, we were collectively viewed as untouchables and highly unpopular.

But during this time, many of us really started to lean into what made us outcasts and what made us different. And this became part of the basis for our positive identities.

My friend Joe coined the term "nerd pride" and it really captured how I felt about it all.

So, instead of thinking about what caused me to be rejected as an indicator of my undesirability... instead I turned the tables and began viewing myself as different in a good way and that my nature is actually more interesting and cooler than the "normal people".

And this was a good first stepping stone into a positive self-concept.

The main thing is to take what you like least about yourself and to learn to celebrate it as what makes you special. Then you can be the phoenix that rises from your own ash.

I was unpopular with men and women. A group of boys used to tell me everyday at 15 that "Nobody loves you" it's etched in my memory. The leader of that group was already having sex with multiple women at school and is now married with kids. The girls at school used to say "I would die a virgin", when condoms were handed out during sex education class they laughed at me taking them, since I would never need them. I never found my group of outcast, anyone I asked out would laugh at me. Never got invited anywhere.

If a healthy masculinity is so attractive then why do overtly negative, destructive men manage to attract women?

How can I develop any self love with such a terrible foundation. I have no positive memories, nothing to fall back on where I can say at this point I was embraced, even cousins and older siblings treated me bad. If you never find your tribe, your self development amounts to nothing. I've had phases of trying to embrace myself and it works until you go home alone again knowing nobody cares about you or will call on your birthday.

I am not angry at women anymore but I have given up on trying, the only reason I won't kill myself is because I believe in reincarnation and think I will have to repeat this lifetime if I commit suicide. So I just have to endure this pathetic existence until it's my time.

Edited April 11 by Tenebroso

[Emerald]

Just now, Tenebroso said:

I was unpopular with men and women. A group of boys used to tell me everyday at 15 that "Nobody loves you" it's etched in my memory. The leader of that group was already having sex with multiple women at school and is now married with kids. The girls at school used to say "I would die a virgin", when condoms were handed out during sex education class they laughed at me taking them, since I would never need them. I never found my group of outcast, anyone I asked out would laugh at me.

If a healthy masculinity is so attractive then why do overtly negative, destructive men manage to attract women?

How can develop any self love with terrible of foundation. I have no positive memories, nothing to fall back on where I can say at this point I was embraced, even cousins and older siblings treated me bad. If you never find your tribe, your self development amounts to nothing. I've had phases of trying to embrace myself and it works until you go home alone again knowing nobody cares about you or will call on your birthday.

I am not angry at women anymore but I have given up on trying, the only reason I won't kill myself is because I believe in reincarnation and think I will have to repeat this lifetime if I commit suicide. So I just have to endure this pathetic existence until it's my time.

Healthy men are mostly attractive to women who are healthy themselves and who are fairly self-aware about what they want and need in a relationship. Otherwise, it is like casting pearls before swine. The unhealthy will prefer the unhealthy. The healthy will prefer the healthy.

In actuality, most unhealthy attraction dynamics come from underlying trauma patterns that happen to magnetize people to one another. So, it doesn't even have to do with anything positive that makes someone attracted to someone. This can shed some light on your question of how some destructive men attract women. The key is that they attract women who are destructive themselves... or that have inverted or analogous issues with trauma or self-esteem.

It's also important to keep in mind that there's also the factor that different women will find different guys attractive on that level. For example, I can recognize that Will Smith is attractive and that he has many admirable qualities. But he's not the type of guy that appeals to my sensibilities. 

But truthfully... the main thing that would be helpful for you to focus on is the shame itself. And the way to heal from shame is to practice unconditional self-acceptance and self-love.

But this will be challenging until you you find 1+ people to connect with on a friendship level who accepts you for who you are since we are a social species. And we will only feel safe coming to accept ourselves if we have people we're socially connected to who accept and value us. And all you need is 1 person that accepts you to start embodying yourself  more.

[Tenebroso]

@Emerald Thanks but I think I am done. From the age of 17 I have tried everything. Finding that one person feels like a distant fantasy, when I go outside I see people my age and younger in couples, friendship groups, families etc While I am pathetically hoping that one person on this earth would like me. The hope is demoralizing.

[StarStruck]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

Are you talking about the guys that I mentioned in my post above?

Yes

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, StarStruck said:

When shit hits the fan, I doubt those guys would be any use to you or anybody else. Neither would you feel safe. 

My definition of healthy masculinity is a man who tamed his inner animal. I like Peterson’s philosophy on this one. 

Do the men that I mentioned not come across as men who have tamed their inner animal to you? 

First off, all of the men that I mentioned are highly intelligent and highly competent in their respective fields and they have risen to the top in those fields. So, I don't understand why you think they wouldn't be able to handle things if things got difficult as they've already shown they're highly resourceful and ambitious people.

But more importantly than that... 

I don't live in some lawless context where my best chance of survival as a woman is to be concubine #57 to some ruthless warlord with ASPD.

I live in the 21st century with a whole civilization built up around me with police officers, fire fighters, military, etc. and all sorts of other workers that are specifically tasked with protection. And there's tons of infrastructure built for safety. So, it would be a very rare occasion that I would be facing directly with some kind of danger from outside the household. (Side Note: Violence towards women usually comes from inside the household from abusive partners) And it would be even rarer that my partner would be the one that needs to protect me.

And because society has developed to the point it has, I can afford to seek safer and more fulfilling relationships with men who are less ruthless and who have a more human touch.

 

[StarStruck]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

 

I live in the 21st century with a whole civilization built up around me with police officers, fire fighters, military, etc. and all sorts of other workers that are specifically tasked with protection. And there's tons of infrastructure built for safety. So, it would be a very rare occasion that I would be facing directly with some kind of danger from outside the household. (Side Note: Violence towards women usually comes from inside the household from abusive partners) And it would be even rarer that my partner would be the one that needs to protect me.

 

Exactly, if somebody broke into your house and was trying to get you. You wouldn't call freaking Connel West or god damned Reggie Watts. Lmao... you would call a real man.

 

Edited April 11 by StarStruck

[Emerald]

Just now, StarStruck said:

Exactly, if somebody broke into your house and was trying to get you. You wouldn't call freaking Connel West or god damned Reggie Watts. Lmao... you would call a real man.

And once those "real" men left, I'd be going to bed with that man that I'm actually attracted to and feel connected with.

Women don't get attracted to men solely on the basis of who can whoop the most ass. That quality might be attractive to some women but not others.

I am much more attracted to men who are creative, warm, intelligent, authentic, and who possess a high degree of sensitivity. This is what I need in a man to feel compatible and connected with him. And it's also what I tend to get inspired by in men even when I'm not attracted to them.

I need a warm-spirited man and not a cold-spirited man to feel good in a relationship... which is why I listed the men that I did as they are all warm-spirited (except Bo Burnham who is kind of a mixture of warm and cold)

So I'll leave the ruthlessness to some other woman who finds that sexy.

[StarStruck]

@Emerald

Exceptions do exist. But when shit hits the fan, women will conglomerate around real men. Not men like freaking Jack Black. And obviously we are talking about archetypical energies. No need to create false dichotomies: one can be warm hearted and be cold hearted at the same time depending on the situation. I have both and it can be sensed. When I walk into a room, the men know what is up and the women too. I need to work on warm heartedness though to be honest.

I think you haven't watched the Peterson video. He explains it very well. You need to develop the animal first before you can tame it. 

Edited April 11 by StarStruck

[Javfly33]

On 09/04/2024 at 4:44 PM, Emerald said:

Shame is about feeling fundamentally unworthy of existence. 

And the only antidote to shame is unconditional self-love.

Any attempt to fix one’s self will always backfire and produce more shame because shame is about feeling invalid on the level of being.

And running from shame is not a sustainable motivation strategy.

Brilliant. 

Don´t expect most people here to understand this. Most people here are not walking the road towards the real solution, they just putting band-aids. 

Almost No one dares to look at the pain of shame and dare to dissolve it, instead of playing this endless games of seeking validation in the external world. 

[StarStruck]

This topic misses the mark so hard, it is not even funny. I wish live was as easy as applying self-love to shame. 😂 In my opinion shame is not an unhealthy emotions. All of our emotions are healthy emotions but the thing is how do you deal with the emotion? In a healthy way or unhealthy way?

If anything shame can be a powerful emotion to get your shit straight. That is if you transmute it in a healthy way.

Edited April 11 by StarStruck

[MuadDib]

45 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

This topic misses the mark so hard, it is not even funny. I wish live was as easy as applying self-love to shame. 😂

You don't seem to be aware that courage, honour, discipline, and adhering to one's principles and beliefs embody self-love.
Tate does some of these things well, in some contexts but mostly not, and mostly the opposite.
Trafficking vulnerable young women and manipulating lonely men for money, then blaming society for all his problems is quite cowardly, dishonourable, and not the kind of suffering that people should aspire to face to better themselves and society.
Being deeply disassociated from emotions is not the same as being in control of them.

Edited April 11 by MuadDib

[Kid A]

14 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

I've never tried to compensate by being super stylish or becoming muscular, focusing on my look etc

Why not? If you don’t do everything in your power to maximize your chances, you can't really complain if you don’t get any results. To dress better is the easiest and most effective way to become more attractive. If I go out and my clothes aren’t 10/10, girls will be really annoyed if I approach them. It’s a totally different world to live in compared to when I’m dressed nice.

[Tenebroso]

@Kid A I've given up, I am just waiting to die. The only reason why I won't kill myself is that  I believe in Reincarnation and don't want to repeat this life.

[Kid A]

4 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

@Kid A I've given up, I am just waiting to die. The only reason why I won't kill myself is that  I believe in Reincarnation and don't want to repeat this life.

Why give up before you’ve even given it a real shot?

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Brilliant. 

Don´t expect most people here to understand this. Most people here are not walking the road towards the real solution, they just putting band-aids. 

Almost No one dares to look at the pain of shame and dare to dissolve it, instead of playing this endless games of seeking validation in the external world. 

That's exactly true. The issue is really that the shame problem presents symptomatically as a problem meeting women/getting women to like them. Sometimes it presents itself as a need to improve one's self in other ways as well.

So, because of this misdiagnosis, they try to solve the problem on the level of the symptom and not on the level of the root. 

The problem is that it's tricky because there are also practical reasons to want to improve one's self and get better with dating/sex/relationships, so it can be difficult to parse the distinction and notice the shame motivation that partially undergirds these motivations.

And it's usually some mixture of practical motivations and motivations to get away from feelings of unworthiness that is instilled into boys/men by telling them that they are not enough as they are. So, it isn't as clear and obvious in more subtle cases with men who are less afflicted by the collective shame or who are able to cope with that collective shame in other ways.

But we can look towards groups like Incels and other Manosphere groups to see more obvious expressions of coping mechanisms to that collective shame wound that generally impacts men as a whole group.

The issue is that the expressions of these coping mechanisms sets off women's collective wounding around powerless. So, it's difficult for women to exercise compassion and to view these behaviors beyond a surface level. 

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, StarStruck said:

@Emerald

Exceptions do exist. But when shit hits the fan, women will conglomerate around real men. Not men like freaking Jack Black. And obviously we are talking about archetypical energies. No need to create false dichotomies: one can be warm hearted and be cold hearted at the same time depending on the situation. I have both and it can be sensed. When I walk into a room, the men know what is up and the women too. I need to work on warm heartedness though to be honest.

I think you haven't watched the Peterson video. He explains it very well. You need to develop the animal first before you can tame it. 

I think I've heard Jordan Peterson talk about the "tame the animal" idea before. He talks about how a man shouldn't seek to be harmless... but dangerous and in control of his dangerousness.

There are angles with which that is true, and I have worked with men who repress their more animalistic side and their aggression.

I actually have a close friend of mine who grew up in a very patriarchal Mormon town. And he had lots of issues with his dad.

So, he had/has this whole dynamic around wanting to avoid being "like the other guys" who he sees as too aggressive.

I talk often with him (and mostly male) clients of mine about a dynamic that I refer to as the 'lion and lion-tamer' dynamic. And this has to do with integrating both aggressiveness and self-control. This is an issue that afflicts men who try to declaw themselves because of shame they have in their aggressive side as they don't want to be "like those other guys".

But this lion/lion tamer dynamic is very subtle when it's done correctly. When a man integrates his lion,  the spark of his instinctual aggressive vibes show through his otherwise warm-hearted and interesting personality like a glittering light. And it makes a man very magnetic.

And that's part of what I find attractive about the men that I mentioned, because I can see the lion and lion tamer in them dancing together.

Men who are too much lion tamer and no lion aren't interesting. But men who are too much lion are also not interesting.

When those two elements are integrated, you get a brilliant and unique expression of the Masculine.

And it's a personal tendency to be attracted more to men who are a bit more reserved with their lion as it creates mystery and intrigue where I feel like I can unveil the hidden lion in him. Kind of like the male equivalent of "lady in the streets and freak in the sheets."

For example, young Mr. Rogers is on my list. And what I find appealing attraction-wise about him is that he was such a caring and warm-hearted person and he gave this speech back in the 70s or thereabouts that shows this very fatherly energy where he cares deeply about children's well being. And he doesn't wear his sexuality or aggression on his sleeve at all. He is so fundamentally wholesome and high vibrational.

But I also know that he's still a human man with male instincts. And the thought of rousing the lion in that sort of a man (who has tamed his lion) is intriguing to me in ways a heterosexual male might not understand or appreciate.

But some women may also have the opposite preference where she wants a guy who is a bit more ostentatious with his lion. That's also a preference that many women have.

But there is no dichotomy here of "fake men" vs "real men". All men are real men. They are just different. 

[jimwell]

12 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Exceptions do exist. But when shit hits the fan, women will conglomerate around real men. Not men like freaking Jack Black.

Correct 

 

12 hours ago, StarStruck said:

No need to create false dichotomies: one can be warm hearted and be cold hearted at the same time depending on the situation. I have both and it can be sensed.

Who you want to be and who you are are 2 different things. 

But yes, being strong and fierce but simulatenously sensitive and compassionate is a very beautiful thing. 

[Consept]

@Emerald 

I agree with a lot of what you say but I'm not sure this is exclusive to red pill type communities. How i look at it is shame if you like, is a human condition that many are suffering for a variety of different reasons, most prominantaly parental and societal. 

I agree that the solution to this and probably a lot of issues is unconditional self-love as you say, in fact I strongly believe this. However I don't understand the specificity of lumping the male groups all together under this umbrella, there are many communities with the same issues. Potentially it could be simplistic to just boil it down to self love.

Another angle for example, is that as women have become more independent, the role of men has somewhat diminished to the point where women no longer need a man but maybe still want a man. Meaning that their criteria for a partner has evolved to wanting guys with attributes like emotional intelligence, which previous generations have not even thought about. Boys have been brought up without these extended skills as they weren't seen as important, now they come into a dating landscape that they are just not prepared for. This can push them into things like red or black pill groups as they feel that the situation is hopeless. Now just these series of events can affect men dramatically if they are not able to adapt, this doesn't necessarily come from lack of self love it's more circumstantial. 

But overall I get what you're saying, I just think the issue is a bit more complex.

[StarStruck]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

I think I've heard Jordan Peterson talk about the "tame the animal" idea before. He talks about how a man shouldn't seek to be harmless... but dangerous and in control of his dangerousness.

There are angles with which that is true, and I have worked with men who repress their more animalistic side and their aggression.

I actually have a close friend of mine who grew up in a very patriarchal Mormon town. And he had lots of issues with his dad.

So, he had/has this whole dynamic around wanting to avoid being "like the other guys" who he sees as too aggressive.

I talk often with him (and mostly male) clients of mine about a dynamic that I refer to as the 'lion and lion-tamer' dynamic. And this has to do with integrating both aggressiveness and self-control. This is an issue that afflicts men who try to declaw themselves because of shame they have in their aggressive side as they don't want to be "like those other guys".

But this lion/lion tamer dynamic is very subtle when it's done correctly. When a man integrates his lion,  the spark of his instinctual aggressive vibes show through his otherwise warm-hearted and interesting personality like a glittering light. And it makes a man very magnetic.

And that's part of what I find attractive about the men that I mentioned, because I can see the lion and lion tamer in them dancing together.

Men who are too much lion tamer and no lion aren't interesting. But men who are too much lion are also not interesting.

When those two elements are integrated, you get a brilliant and unique expression of the Masculine.

And it's a personal tendency to be attracted more to men who are a bit more reserved with their lion as it creates mystery and intrigue where I feel like I can unveil the hidden lion in him. Kind of like the male equivalent of "lady in the streets and freak in the sheets."

For example, young Mr. Rogers is on my list. And what I find appealing attraction-wise about him is that he was such a caring and warm-hearted person and he gave this speech back in the 70s or thereabouts that shows this very fatherly energy where he cares deeply about children's well being. And he doesn't wear his sexuality or aggression on his sleeve at all. He is so fundamentally wholesome and high vibrational.

But I also know that he's still a human man with male instincts. And the thought of rousing the lion in that sort of a man (who has tamed his lion) is intriguing to me in ways a heterosexual male might not understand or appreciate.

But some women may also have the opposite preference where she wants a guy who is a bit more ostentatious with his lion. That's also a preference that many women have.

But there is no dichotomy here of "fake men" vs "real men". All men are real men. They are just different. 

That is what I'm trying to say.