Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[StarStruck]

@RendHeaven agreed

[Leo Gura]

Personally, I never felt shame when entering pickup. I just felt inexperienced, insecure, and eager to learn how to get good with girls. You can do pickup just for the mastery of it as a skill set. You can also do it for the adventure. Outsiders don't realize what a rush and exciting adventure the pickup journey is. It's like traveling around the world. The adventure of it is better than the sex. When you're on the pickup journey life becomes exciting and fun.

Edited April 9 by Leo Gura

[StarStruck]

4 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Is a strong sense of community inherently a "good" thing? Other societies have the shame problem, which can be, imo, more unhealthy or toxic.

Shame is a social emotion. But it is hard wired into our survival brain. Shame basically has to do with fitting in the group aka following others. While to be good with women you have to be shameless but in a light hearted funny way. 

Edited April 9 by StarStruck

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I wouldn't call that shame.

But, yes, many men feel that way when they struggle to get sex.

You’d be incorrect to not call that shame as the shame is as I described it by definition.

Men can feel shame if they struggle to get sex if they make the meaning “I’m not lovable” or “I’m not enough” out of it. And anyone who struggles in that department could end up creating some of those shame narratives about themselves even if they don’t fall into the manosphere vortex.

But even men in these kinds of communities who have a high degree of self-efficacy with getting sex from women still feel shame.

And that’s because the shame can’t be fixed by getting better with women… or by any means of self-improvement. 

So getting sex doesn’t change that because the shame is about feeling invalid on the level of being.

And we can cope with shame through all means of self-improvement tactics. But these tactics cannot fix our shame issues even if we do overcome the perceived problem.

The only antidote to shame is unconditional self-love and self-compassion.

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Personally, I never felt shame when entering pickup. I just felt inexperienced, insecure, and eager to learn how to get good with girls. You can do pickup just for the mastery of it as a skill set. You can also do it for the adventure. Outsiders don't realize what a rush and exciting adventure the pickup journey is. It's like traveling around the world. The adventure of it is better than the sex. When you're on the pickup journey life becomes exciting and fun.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get better with dating/approach skills. It’s useful.

And of course motivations are multifaceted. If the shame dynamic I talked about was resolved totally, men would still want/need skills for meeting women.

So, I’m sure when you sought out pickup, you probably had quite a lot of your motivation based on functionality.

Also, while most men have some level of shame relative to the dynamic that I mentioned, keep in mind that I’m talking about guys who specifically end up in communities like the ones in the Manosphere. And shame is the glue that keeps those communities coalescing together.

But if you don’t think you’re dealing with shame, I would implore you to look again. People who get really into self-improvement tend to have a lot of shame because many are trying to transcend some intonation of themselves that they disliked and could not stomach.

So, even though I wouldn’t characterize you as a Manosphere guy because you’re not getting sucked into those communities, I can notice that your acceptance of yourself is very conditional.

The more conditional your self-acceptance is, the more shame you will have. That’s true even if you’re meeting all of your conditions.

[Nemra]

@StarStruck 

I wanted to say that it's relative and groups can shame others, which doesn't mean you have to accept it. People feel ashamed and automatically think it's showing them that they are doing something wrong that they have been told about. They don't self-reflect, which can help uncover the truth of that situation, where a strong sense of community becomes an obstacle.

[StarStruck]

Basically the answer to every negative emotion is self acceptance and self love. But actually transmuting the negative emotion to a positive one is a whole ass different skill. 

[mr_engineer]

35 minutes ago, Emerald said:

To explain this we have to see how the current societal structure isn’t working towards pro-social ends.

We all live in fractured off single-family households without a strong sense of community. And those single-family households easily break apart.

So, we’re living in a very fractured lonely time period which only gets worse with social media because we’re not socializing in person. And everyone’s running a rat race just to make ends meet and doesn’t have energy to engage in community.

But the reality that I’ve noticed is that people need each other. Not just on a task level… but on a connection level.

So, husbands and wives still rely on one another to contribute to the household and children. It’s nearly impossible to do it alone.

But more so that that, there is a deep-seated connection need that we have for the people in our lives.

Agreed. 

44 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And many (probably most) women need a connection with a long term male partner to feel like their social/emotional needs are fulfilled.

What are those social/emotional needs? Which ones can be met by a male friend and which ones do you need a long-term male partner for? 

27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But overall, men might feel the most unneeded if he lacks a feeling of contribution to a relationship, family, or wider community. Or if he feels like his contributions aren’t acknowledged.

Define 'contribution'. 

It was 'providing for a family' in the past. After feminism, that's not an acceptable definition anymore. So, what does 'contribution' mean, practically? 

29 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But the number one thing a man can do to offset this is to be in community and relationships with those who value him. 

Define 'value'. What value do men hold, in a world after feminism? 

If you could answer this question, it would help with the shame. 

[Nemra]

11 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Basically the answer to every negative emotion is self acceptance and self love.

Yeah. It's radical, counter-intuitive, and hard because you are just accepting that you can physically harm someone or the opposite.

Edited April 9 by Nemra

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Agreed. 

What are those social/emotional needs? Which ones can be met by a male friend and which ones do you need a long-term male partner for? 

Define 'contribution'. 

It was 'providing for a family' in the past. After feminism, that's not an acceptable definition anymore. So, what does 'contribution' mean, practically? 

Define 'value'. What value do men hold, in a world after feminism? 

If you could answer this question, it would help with the shame. 

There’s deeper intimacy, cuddling, sex, parenthood and lots of other subtle dynamics that can only be had with a male partner as opposed to a friend.

And I don’t see why provision would be off the table as something men are valued for after Feminism.

I personally prefer a dynamic of mutual contribution in a relationship. But that’s still provision.

It’s just the sense that I don’t have to do it all alone and that I have someone to share life with. And that I have someone that I can rely on for help if I need it. It’s a feeling of relaxation knowing I don’t have to deal with things alone and that I don’t have to struggle against life by myself.

It’s the closeness, affection, companionship, and mutual support that I value the most. And I prefer that dynamic with a man.

[Applegarden8]

Hmm, I have a different problem. I haven't really dated any women successively. I don't have a problem with them. But I have an existential and life purpose problem that restricts me from getting into a relationship. Basically I do underestand that I can consciously evolve by picking up a technique and radically improving (spending a lot of time, just like in a craft), and I am capable of doing so. I am not happy, not sad also, not lonely and not bored. I can't explain, it's some kind of dark night of the soul thing where I can't enjoy stuff, but the most enjoyable thing is the present moment. So getting into a relationship does not make sense, since I will die alone and anyway. Life purpose problem is smaller but is within the existentential problem, and I contemplate wether to do music or not. Not sure what to make of that and if this information is any use to you.

Edited April 9 by Applegarden8

[Schizophonia]

3 hours ago, Nemra said:

@Schizophonia 

Isn't that woman wanting you to be "masculine"?

I didn't understand your question.

If it what it's means, no, she has said that the main problem was men dont accepting their feminity.

I assume non only it's not relevant, but it's quite the opposite. 

Edited April 9 by Schizophonia

[aurum]

I think of it more generally as pain.

You can just feel how hurt a lot of these people are. And then they clash with women's groups, who are often also experiencing a lot of pain. And each sees the other side as the source of the pain.

Note I am not saying it is invalid for these groups to be in pain. The pain is often extremely valid, based on real experiences of trauma and / or lack of some kind. And I see valid points made by both sides at times, although the bias and distortion is very real as well.

It's obvious how this leads to tons of conflict.

I think another caveat to consider is not to engage in trauma reductionism. I see this in a lot of SD Green-type communities, where everyone is hyper-focused on healing their unworthiness and pain. But this can lead to gross oversimplifications of things. A multi-lens approach will likely be more effective.

Edited April 9 by aurum

[Schizophonia]

3 hours ago, StarStruck said:

If anything men today are too feminized. And her solution for these men is to become more feminine. 😭

Usually these problematic men were raised by problematic women and didn’t have a good male role model. 

Yes.

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

 

1. Unhealthy masculine: Selfish, Arrogant, Insensitive, Abrasive, Destructive, Cold, Defensive (of self), Isolated, Stubborn

No, that's just me. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Men can feel shame if they struggle to get sex if they make the meaning “I’m not lovable” or “I’m not enough” out of it. And anyone who struggles in that department could end up creating some of those shame narratives about themselves

Can and could, but not must, and not even a majority I would guess.

It feels like you want to put pickup guys into this shame box which you have constructed in your own mind. Of course some of them fit in that box, but I would be careful about over-generalizing, especially since you don't have personal experience going through pickup, so you're sorta speculating about what it's like to be a man and why men act as they do.

It would be sorta like if I said that women overeat because they feel hidden shame. Or maybe some women just like to eat junk.

Edited April 9 by Leo Gura

[NoSelfSelf]

It all boils down to caring about the woman and making it all about the woman,at that point man becomes a woman and she doesnt want to date a woman.Then that care becomes biterness because you want her more than yourself so all hell break loose when it doesnt happen the way you want it by fitting into what you think she wants and when it doesnt work,one thinks: so how could she do that when i care for her so much,lets talk bad about her now on the internet(feminine behaviour of red pill ideology)

Edited April 9 by NoSelfSelf

[Schizophonia]

OP is my mirror of when I try to be interested in a subject mainly to inflate my ego by being educational, that is to say from an ivory tower.

OP has specified here and there wanting to be a strong woman or stuff like that, with a dry and educational air, her avatar is even her with a serious facial expression and a finger pointing upwards (symbol of authority).
It is therefore logical that she creates situations in the matter like this topic where her mirrors reflect back to her a mirror of herself where she understands nothing and is in a situation of intellectual pathos.

This message is a big assumed mirror.

I like this games.

[RendHeaven]

4 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

No, that's just me. 

You're not so bad

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Can and could, but not must, and not even a majority I would guess.

Yup

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

I think another caveat to consider with all this is not to engage in trauma reductionism.

Yup

[Schizophonia]

Just now, RendHeaven said:

You're not so bad

Ty.

No of course, i play this little game because it allows me to be "unvulnerable", and as a general rule to get around certain fears regarding the image that I can project to others, even if paradoxically I find myself having problems socializing.
Whatever 

[Emerald]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Can and could, but not must, and not even a majority I would guess.

It feels like you want to put pickup guys into this shame box which you have constructed in your own mind. Of course some of them fit in that box, but I would be careful about over-generalizing, especially since you don't have personal experience going through pickup, so you're sorta speculating about what it's like to be a man and why men act as they do.

It would be sorta like if I said that women overeat because they feel hidden shame. Or maybe some women just like to eat junk.

I'm not talking specifically about pickup guys. I'm talking about Red Pill, Incels, and that types of guy.

You can find this pattern in pickup communities too because there is crossover. But I'm talking about a different sort of echo chamber.