Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[Schizophonia]

38 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

Are you claiming that men as a collective actually feel more pressured to be Feminine than they are pressured to be Masculine?

Yes.
I know many men (including myself) who would not hesitate to shave their heads, dress in very loose clothing, eat a lot, even drink alcohol etc if it weren't for the pressure to please women.

It's a form of feminization. 

Edited April 9 by Schizophonia

[StarStruck]

We all have our shadows that we project onto the world and onto people including the opposite sex. I think Emerald is just no different. She has problems with the opposite sex (admitted daddy issues) and tries to fix these internal issues with external solutions (trying to fix the world) but imo she totally misses the mark.  She has a huge shadow for somebody who is trying to fix others. Especially if you want to tackle huge issues like abstract concepts as battle of the sexes you need to be shadow free. I think a lot is already explained by Jung himself. Reading his stuff is so essential. 

Edited April 9 by StarStruck

[Nemra]

@Schizophonia 

Isn't that woman wanting you to be "masculine"?

[StarStruck]

17 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes.
I know many men (including myself) who would not hesitate to shave their heads, dress in very loose clothing, eat a lot, even drink alcohol etc if it weren't for the pressure to please women.

It's a form of feminization. 

If anything men today are too feminized. And her solution for these men is to become more feminine. 😭

Usually these problematic men were raised by problematic women and didn’t have a good male role model. 

Edited April 9 by StarStruck

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald Alright. I understand the problems you're presenting and I agree with you. You are right. 

Now, let's be solution-oriented. 

First, I would like to posit that men can't do this on their own, amongst each other. We will need help from conscious women to resolve this. It's not just because men can't learn to feel and process emotions on their own. That we are actually capable of. Where we need your help, is in figuring out where we fit into society. Let me explain. 

With feminism came a wave of 'female independence'. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, this is a good thing. However, a side-effect of this, a cost that men had to pay for this, is that men lost their role in the family as a 'provider'. And, in relationships with women and children, men need to feel useful. Because if the man isn't useful, he will start to feel insecure in his ability to keep women and children in his life. Individually, every man's life is different but collectively, if we want to understand these big waves of 'misogynistic' movements, this factor cannot be ignored. 

Unconscious women cannot figure this out, because they don't see themselves as responsible for society at large, much less men's problems. The whole point of feminism, under the surface-level ideology of 'equality', is to show men a big middle-finger after the 'oppression' that happened 70 years ago. We can sense it. But, conscious women, who have their own shit sorted to the degree that they are capable of doing something for society, should intuit that this is something worth their attention. 

Here is my question for you - now that the patriarchy is effectively done and we have a more 'civilized', 'equal' society, where do men fit in? 

[Nemra]

 

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

If anything men today are too feminized.

Maybe they are becoming honest with themselves. Why do you believe that a man should only be masculine?

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

We all have our shadows that we project onto the world and onto people including the opposite sex. I think Emerald is just no different. She has problems with the opposite sex (admitted daddy issues) and tries to fix these internal issues with external solutions (trying to fix the world) but imo she totally misses the mark.  She has a huge shadow for somebody who is trying to fix others. Especially if you want to tackle huge issues like abstract concepts as battle of the sexes you need to be shadow free. I think a lot is already explained by Jung himself. Reading his stuff is so essential. 

What do you mean by “admitted daddy issues”? What did I say?

The majority of my parental issues have been with my mom.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Or work hard and build character to be worthy of existence again.

And change the existence (external reality) itself. 

I think DaVinci had immense shame associated with living a wretched existence. That's they he was always on his toes to live life intentionally in accordance with his highest values.

Unconscious shame can be a problem because you don't have any means to reverse it, even though you could have possibly worked on it.

There should be some reason for being invalid. If you can work on it, then do work on it.

If you can't work on it, then it's not a good idea to shame yourself on it. 

Feeling shame for things you can't change is a serious problem. In that scenario, I agree with you that the correct path of action is self love.

But if you can work on yourself, then just get it done. That's the best love you can do to yourself given your circumstances.

Context matters.

The fundamental problem is ignorance and unconsciousness.

Shame is what happens when we apply some condition upon ourselves in order to be existentially valid.

And shame is to be in the illusion that we are separate from all things in reality and don’t belong here.

Sometimes people build their motivational drivers on the foundation of getting away from shame. But this leaves them with a lifetime of feeling disconnected and inadequate.

It’s a common misconception that shame is helpful because people can become hyper-motivated to get away from it. But overall it just leads to workaholism and a terrible life with no self love.

Instead, it’s much more sustainable and functional to motivate one’s self based primarily on positive motivation and from a self-loving place.

Otherwise life just comes to be about running from the monster of shame. 

[RendHeaven]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

I have to be honest that I see shame as one of the biggest driving factors of why you are focused towards life in the way that you do in general.

Most people with a strong self-improvement focus are motivated significantly by shame as they cannot accept themselves as they are and feel they need to fix/improve themselves to become someone else.

I think you're mostly right, but a caveat:

It's incorrect to argue that shame is more fundamental than sexual need.

• You frame it as if the shame came first, and then the lack of women came second. That is not correct.
• The sexual need (more broadly, the need for physical connection with the feminine) most certainly came first, and when this was not received, a shame complex (negative emotion, overcompensation, denial) started to boil up like a scab over a wound.
• But make no mistake, the wound itself is feeling rejected (cut off) from the feminine, a physical event.
• The growing scab (shame) later manifests as ugly behavior: attempts to act overly masculine or to demonize inner feminine qualities.
• But if we grew up hugged and kissed and sucked and fucked by every girl we've ever crushed on, there would be no need to harbor overcompensation/denial patterns in the form of shame. But of course, life doesn't work like that. Rejection is inherent to this human life. The problem is twofold:
  • 1) nobody ever taught us how to actually attract women.
  • 2) nobody ever taught us how to embrace and move on from rejection.
• Notice that if I were born with 0 sexual needs, 0 desire to be close to women, women don't even cross my mind - in such an alternative world, there would be no shame complex for you to be observing from above.

But overall you make a good point by bringing awareness to the big ugly scab. Once the scab has multiplied and crusted over, it becomes a sort of entity unto itself, and simply ripping it off and probing at the flesh wound over and over will never return the skin to normal. The scab needs attention of its own, mainly acceptance, until it naturally falls off by itself.

[Leo Gura]

SHAME, definition:

"A painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior."

Inadequency might apply better to this topic than shame. Men feel inadequet, and often for good reason, because they haven't developed themselves yet.

Pickup at its best helps men to develop themselves into mature masculinity. Although of course most PUAs stay immature.

Edited April 9 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald Alright. I understand the problems you're presenting and I agree with you. You are right. 

Now, let's be solution-oriented. 

First, I would like to posit that men can't do this on their own, amongst each other. We will need help from conscious women to resolve this. It's not just because men can't learn to feel and process emotions on their own. That we are actually capable of. Where we need your help, is in figuring out where we fit into society. Let me explain. 

With feminism came a wave of 'female independence'. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, this is a good thing. However, a side-effect of this, a cost that men had to pay for this, is that men lost their role in the family as a 'provider'. And, in relationships with women and children, men need to feel useful. Because if the man isn't useful, he will start to feel insecure in his ability to keep women and children in his life. Individually, every man's life is different but collectively, if we want to understand these big waves of 'misogynistic' movements, this factor cannot be ignored. 

Unconscious women cannot figure this out, because they don't see themselves as responsible for society at large, much less men's problems. The whole point of feminism, under the surface-level ideology of 'equality', is to show men a big middle-finger after the 'oppression' that happened 70 years ago. We can sense it. But, conscious women, who have their own shit sorted to the degree that they are capable of doing something for society, should intuit that this is something worth their attention. 

Here is my question for you - now that the patriarchy is effectively done and we have a more 'civilized', 'equal' society, where do men fit in? 

To explain this we have to see how the current societal structure isn’t working towards pro-social ends.

We all live in fractured off single-family households without a strong sense of community. And those single-family households easily break apart.

So, we’re living in a very fractured lonely time period which only gets worse with social media because we’re not socializing in person. And everyone’s running a rat race just to make ends meet and doesn’t have energy to engage in community.

But the reality that I’ve noticed is that people need each other. Not just on a task level… but on a connection level.

So, husbands and wives still rely on one another to contribute to the household and children. It’s nearly impossible to do it alone.

But more so that that, there is a deep-seated connection need that we have for the people in our lives.

And many (probably most) women need a connection with a long term male partner to feel like their social/emotional needs are fulfilled.

For women who have been hurt by a man in the past, this can create a lot of painful feelings because there is a sense that they need what hurts them. And it can create feelings of powerlessness and anger. I see similar dynamics with men who have bad experiences with a woman.

But overall, men might feel the most unneeded if he lacks a feeling of contribution to a relationship, family, or wider community. Or if he feels like his contributions aren’t acknowledged.

But the number one thing a man can do to offset this is to be in community and relationships with those who value him. 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

SHAME, definition:

"A painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior."

That’s more like the definition of embarrassment and guilt… which often get used interchangeably with shame.

Embarrassment/Humiliation is being seen by others in a foolish light that we don’t want to be seen in.

Guilt/remorse is having done something that hurt someone or that we see as unethical and feeling bad about it.

But shame is about feeling like we are invalid. It’s the feeling of exile and like we don’t belong in a social group or in reality at large. It is to feel unlovable and like we are a mistake.

[mmKay]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

SHAME, definition:

"A painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior."

That sounds more like the definition of "guilt"

Shame can be that but also be about  who you are and not only what you did. Like your self-image ( identity) and how you think others perceive you. 

Like being ashamed of being broke or short has nothing to do with doing anything, it's an inner game issue. Guilt is a about consciously doing stuff you know is bad by your own or societies standards ( stealing, telling lies, hurting people... )

Edited April 9 by mmKay

[Emerald]

23 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

I think you're mostly right, but a caveat:

It's incorrect to argue that shame is more fundamental than sexual need.

If it were just a sexual need, it wouldn’t be expressed in such a toxic way.

And if it were just a sexual need, it would go away in men who get good at doing pick-up. But it doesn’t.

There are plenty of men in these communities of shame who have female partners and who are good at getting sex who still hold the same resentments. So, I’m not just talking about incels.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It is to feel unlovable and like we are a mistake.

I wouldn't call that shame.

But, yes, many men feel that way when they struggle to get sex.

Edited April 9 by Leo Gura

[RendHeaven]

2 hours ago, StarStruck said:

If anything men today are too feminized. And her solution for these men is to become more feminine. 😭

It's complicated. I see both sides.

I personally believe men, women, and the whole world would be better off with strong sexual polarity: men being more masculine, women being more feminine. Androgyny is generally the result of unbalanced hormones (chemical warfare) and conformity (psychological warfare).

For an honest evaluation of heterosexual dynamics in modern dating, it's not sufficient to merely categorize people in boxes of "masculine" and "feminine."

We need to further distinguish "healthy masculine" vs "unhealthy masculine," and "healthy feminine" vs "unhealthy feminine."

A quick rundown of each:

1. Healthy masculine: Grounded, Certain, Driven, Unreactive, Proactive, Warm, Protective (of others), Self-Sufficient, Self-Same (Integrous)
2. Unhealthy masculine: Selfish, Arrogant, Insensitive, Abrasive, Destructive, Cold, Defensive (of self), Isolated, Stubborn
3. Healthy feminine: Dynamic, Spontaneous, Relaxed, Reactive, Supportive, Warm, Nurturing, Finds power and identity in community
4. Unhealthy feminine: Uncontrolled, Hysterical, Passive, Gullible, Dependent, Needy, Leech, Feels helpless and lost in community

Most modern men are a combination of unhealthy masculine + unhealthy feminine with almost no redeeming healthy traits. It's a total shit show, lol.

Therefore we have guys like you and schizophonia telling men to "be more masculine" by which you guys really mean to say: "let's stop the unhealthy feminine behavior." Notice that the healthy masculine "cancels out" the unhealthy feminine behavior. So you guys have made the right call.

Meanwhile we have people like Emerald telling men to "embrace their feminine" by which she really means to say: "let's stop the unhealthy masculine behavior" But the healthy feminine also "cancels out" the unhealthy masculine. So she too is making the right call.

As a man who authentically feels masculine, I personally aim to be 95% healthy masculine, 5% healthy feminine, and 0% of either unhealthy side.

This ratio is completely unique to you and nobody can answer for you how masculine or feminine you are meant to be.

Rarely is anybody truly 50/50, remember what I said above about chemical and psychological warfare. Most humans are polarized in one direction or the other.

But in any case, we all have the common goal of adopting healthier forms of masculinity and femininity respectively.

[Raze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0YuTSieDMU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FB6ZE5T0M4

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

And if it were just a sexual need, it would go away in men who get good at doing pick-up. But it doesn’t.

I addressed this at the end with the scab example.

It's not "just" a sexual need. I am agreeing with you that shame is involved.

My only criticism is your false emphasis on prioritizing shame.

[Nemra]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

We all live in fractured off single-family households without a strong sense of community. And those single-family households easily break apart

Is a strong sense of community inherently a "good" thing? Other societies have the shame problem, which can be, imo, more unhealthy or toxic.

[Leo Gura]

This is a good read:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame