Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[MuadDib]

On 08/04/2024 at 1:27 PM, Emerald said:

• Following/stalking One time, I was walking back to my apartment from college and there was a guy that was on one of the last roads I had to turn down to get home. And he was clearly on something as he wasn't making much sense. He kept saying to me over and over "I write grants." I think he was trying to impress me by bragging about his job. But he was like a zombie and kept on following me and repeating over and over "I write grants" like a zombie repeats over and over "Brains!"
• Putting too much emotional weight into the conversation One time in my early 20s, I was out at this cigar bar that I still occasionally like to go to from time to time. And I always go up to the top floor because they have a chess set there, and I like to try to find people to play chess with me. So, I went there one time and I went up to the top floor and there was a bigger guy up there. And he and I started playing chess and at first it was. a pretty normal conversation. But he slowly revealed more and more his self-esteem issues and a kind of bitterness towards women for rejecting him. And I started having to walk on eggshells because I was afraid of hurting his feelings. He was like an open wound that I had to be very gentle with. It was kind of like a dynamic I had when I was in elementary school where no one wanted to be my friend, so when someone did, I would cling onto them too hard. I felt bad for him and felt empathy towards him, but it did put me off as he couldn't just talk to me like a regular person.

There are other examples of creepy behavior I've experienced over the years. But these are the ones that come to mind off-hand.

 

 

5 hours ago, Emerald said:

And the germ is shame.

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

It's unwise to minimize men's pain like that.

^Men are deeply sensitive, sophisticated and complex emotional beings. We don't appreciate having all our problems reduced to one feeling or the other.

[k-ahmadzadeh]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

When you combine unmet sexual needs and immaturity in an echochamber with no mature leadership, you get toxicity.

Exactly! Feelings of disappointment are normal, but when it is combined with immaturity, it inevitable leads to toxicity. 

Transform a chad with immature personality into sub5, he will be in the same situation as some misogynists. This is not personal. If a significant portion of rejected men gravitate towards such communities, it suggests that there are inherent characteristic features shared by most men, which become apparent when triggered. 

Edited April 9 by k-ahmadzadeh

[zazen]

You can't un-need needs, communities are formed around facilitating those needs and/or as cathartic echo chambers for those unable to meet them and to release negative emotions within - anger, shame, frustration, bitterness.  These communities can turn into men pretending they don't need women all the whilst operating in a manosphere bubble driven by their sexual needs for women being unmet. 

Women are consistently warned about the potential dangers posed by men throughout their lives. They're advised to navigate cautiously and be mindful of manipulation. But who extends a warning to men about the intricacies of women? Usually no one. Most men stumble upon this wisdom through the harsh teacher of pain through experience.

Natures trick on men is the maternal mirage - the deep, unconditional love men receive from their mothers becomes the model they expect from all women. They believe the same vessel that inflated their esteem is incapable of deflating them through rejection.

As these men unearth un-flattering truths, the response is to dismiss them as embittered and having chosen the wrong partner. They're gas lighted and brushed aside. Pain, while an essential checkpoint on the journey to enlightenment, is also the birthplace of hatred. Hate, in essence, is the residue of love disappointed by unmet expectations, leading to suffering. It's the natural reaction to the demise of a cherished falsehood.

Men, once blinded by unconditional love for women, perceiving them as universally benevolent and the embodiment of positive femininty, now view the feminine as the exclusive source of their anguish and the destroyer of their innocence. This births misogynists.

This skewed perception, painting women as purer and kind, eventually drives men to extremes—either becoming simps or evolving into outright misogynists, just as women who have been hurt typically become misandrists and fan the flames of radical feminism. Yet, this is a transient phase, a coping mechanism to grapple with pain by rejecting and vilifying those who caused it.

The journey begins as a fool, blindly trusting and loving, only to transform into a different kind of fool—one who blindly distrusts and hates. The error lies in perceiving them as entirely good or entirely bad. True evolution occurs when it is recognised that people are not categorically good or bad, pure or tainted, selflessly loving or selfishly lustful, but that they are a blend of both.

Ignorance makes you love blindly and resentment makes you hate blindly which only prolongs the suffering longer than needed. The operative word in both is ignorance - which is what society should look to rid itself of.

 

 

Edited April 9 by zazen

[mmKay]

1 hour ago, MuadDib said:

Men are deeply sensitive, sophisticated and complex emotional beings. 

 

 

 

Men are borderline autistic compered with women 

The kind you're describing is an exception 

Edited April 9 by mmKay

[OBEler]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

This 'men trying to match up to a Masculine ideal' dynamic is very obvious even at a cursory glance.

Yeah that's not what I try to tell you. we use masculine ideal as a tool to get girls. And most men are not anxious or feel shame or pressure about this. None of these vulnerability feelings a woman normally has. 

 

 

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, mmKay said:

Men are borderline autistic compered with women 

The kind you're describing is an exception 

Actually, you posted examples of exceptions being random fighters and crazy people. Men as are complex as women and do have feelings and needs as deep as women, even if society dismisses and shames them for it. 

Edited April 9 by Raze

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I didn't go into pickup because of shame or any kind of shadow stuff. 

The Shadow is called the Shadow specifically because it deals with what’s unconscious.

You said yourself in a post a while back that you don’t trust women who are attracted to you.

Kind of like how Mark Twain said, “I wouldn’t belong to any club that would have me.”

I have to be honest that I see shame as one of the biggest driving factors of why you are focused towards life in the way that you do in general.

Most people with a strong self-improvement focus are motivated significantly by shame as they cannot accept themselves as they are and feel they need to fix/improve themselves to become someone else.

[Emerald]

I see lots of people disagreeing pretty strongly with me on here. 

Perhaps it’s that many don’t like the idea of someone who is not a man speaking about men’s problems. I might also feel a bit triggered also if a man started talking about women’s issues. So, I get that.

But I’m not generating this idea from nowhere.

I know what shame looks like because I’ve been working 1-on-1 with people for over half a decade. And shame has been one of my core wounds as well.

And it’s obvious once you know what it looks like.

And men (in the broad strokes and in varying degrees) have a collective shame problem that presents itself in the form of Anima issues.

And until the men who are the most afflicted with this pattern realize this, they’ll continue to get sucked into these groups and they’ll continue to have issues with things like connection.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

Actually, you posted examples of exceptions being random fighters and crazy people. Men as are complex as women and do have feelings and needs as deep as women, even if society dismisses and shames them for it. 

This is a dynamic that tends to create the shame.

Many people expect men not to be human and vulnerable and to always be stoic and strong. And men often internalize this expectation from the time they are boys.

And because the expectation isn’t realistic, it produces shame in having normal human emotions. 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

Yeah that's not what I try to tell you. we use masculine ideal as a tool to get girls. And most men are not anxious or feel shame or pressure about this. None of these vulnerability feelings a woman normally has. 

It’s really obvious that most men feel lots of anxiety and pressure around approaching women. Just look around this forum and you’ll see clear evidence.

Some of that is from the shame dynamic that I mentioned. Some of that is because rejection is difficult at any rate.

[StarStruck]

So what is your solution to the shame then? Don’t you think these guys can’t feel this shame? They do. It is just in capability of not being able to process it. I think you have weird ideas about what men discuss about among themselves. Most men are level headed about their issues. I don’t see a lot of men complaining compared to women complaining about men. 

Edited April 9 by StarStruck

[Bobby_2021]

I feel strong emotions of shame for not having to lived upto masculine ideals. I work on the shame by getting those things done.

The reason why men are such pussies is that they don't have enough shame at all. That's why they live like total losers and other men kept them in check by shaming them, not that it's particularly healthy.

There is no abstract way to work on shame & men are direct and straightforward in the way they deal with reality. When men say they want something, they really want that. Not getting that is what results in shame. And treating shame is like treating the symptom instead of cause.

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, zazen said:

You can't un-need needs, communities are formed around facilitating those needs and/or as cathartic echo chambers for those unable to meet them and to release negative emotions within - anger, shame, frustration, bitterness.  These communities can turn into men pretending they don't need women all the whilst operating in a manosphere bubble driven by their sexual needs for women being unmet. 

Women are consistently warned about the potential dangers posed by men throughout their lives. They're advised to navigate cautiously and be mindful of manipulation. But who extends a warning to men about the intricacies of women? Usually no one. Most men stumble upon this wisdom through the harsh teacher of pain through experience.

Natures trick on men is the maternal mirage - the deep, unconditional love men receive from their mothers becomes the model they expect from all women. They believe the same vessel that inflated their esteem is incapable of deflating them through rejection.

As these men unearth un-flattering truths, the response is to dismiss them as embittered and having chosen the wrong partner. They're gas lighted and brushed aside. Pain, while an essential checkpoint on the journey to enlightenment, is also the birthplace of hatred. Hate, in essence, is the residue of love disappointed by unmet expectations, leading to suffering. It's the natural reaction to the demise of a cherished falsehood.

Men, once blinded by unconditional love for women, perceiving them as universally benevolent and the embodiment of positive femininty, now view the feminine as the exclusive source of their anguish and the destroyer of their innocence. This births misogynists.

This skewed perception, painting women as purer and kind, eventually drives men to extremes—either becoming simps or evolving into outright misogynists, just as women who have been hurt typically become misandrists and fan the flames of radical feminism. Yet, this is a transient phase, a coping mechanism to grapple with pain by rejecting and vilifying those who caused it.

The journey begins as a fool, blindly trusting and loving, only to transform into a different kind of fool—one who blindly distrusts and hates. The error lies in perceiving them as entirely good or entirely bad. True evolution occurs when it is recognised that people are not categorically good or bad, pure or tainted, selflessly loving or selfishly lustful, but that they are a blend of both.

Ignorance makes you love blindly and resentment makes you hate blindly which only prolongs the suffering longer than needed. The operative word in both is ignorance - which is what society should look to rid itself of.

There are some solid points within this around the ideal Feminine image that tackle this topic from a different angle.

Men’s shame in their Feminine side tends to come through the lens of Anima issues.

There are 4 phases to Anima development…

• The Eve phase
• The Helen phase
• The Mary phase
• The Sophia phase

In the Eve phase, men are the least integrated with their Anima (the Feminine side) and have a strong aversion to the Feminine and see women as both incapable and untrustworthy.

In the Helen phase, men are somewhat more integrated with their Anima than in the Eve phase but still have an aversion to the Feminine and see women as capable but untrustworthy.

In the Mary phase, it is named for the Virgin Mary. And the Feminine is idealized and viewed as pure goodness without any capacity for wickedness…. And women are seen as the purer sex.

In the Sophia phase, this reflects a total dropping of shame regarding the Feminine side and a full integration of Anima. And the Feminine is recognized as multifaceted and women are seen as just human (without the projection of the Anima overlaying them) and are seen as free agents capable of both good and evil.

What you describe here is what happens when a man in the Mary phase is faced with the reality of women being capable of ‘evil’. And they can either use this to transcend to the Sophia phase of slip back into the Helen phase.

Edited April 9 by Emerald

[Schizophonia]

 

1) They are too ugly and/or neuroatypical to have a girlfriend, even an unattractive one.

2) They do not have the courage to move forward because they do not have a figure on whom they can place their trust, so the nervous system prefers to freeze, hence rumination, hatred...
Often no friends, no father, no spirituality, no religion, no coaching...

3) The culture of love in the collective unconscious of Westerners is anti-masculine and basically retarded.
Most ugly men could save several thousand euros, even tens of thousands (after all a house costs a few hundred thousand) to undergo cosmetic surgery and become descent, because ultimately ugliness is only a matter of facial malformations/underdevelopment.
Except that, if it is accepted in certain countries, it triggers in Westerners a feeling of shame like "I DESERVE LOVE LIKE MY PHYSICS IS NORMALLY, OTHERWISE IT’S SHAME, IT’S SAD, BLAH BLAH BLAH".

I have also often heard that being coached and developing is "a shame" for the same logic, more among neuroatypicals here.
In short, delusional narcissism.

Edited April 9 by Schizophonia

[Nemra]

@Emerald 

Idk, what's really like in the US, but when I talk to men and women, I see that men tend to have unconscious shame or opposition around being or acting "feminine". If they don't live up to some "masculine" fantasy, they'll fail as men without really knowing themselves.

[Schizophonia]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There are some solid points within this around the ideal Feminine image that tackle this topic from a different angle.

Men’s shame in their Feminine side tends to come through the lens of Anima issues.

There are 4 phases to Anima development…

• The Eve phase
• The Helen phase
• The Mary phase
• The Sophia phase

In the Eve phase, men are the least integrated with their Anima (the Feminine side) and have a strong aversion to the Feminine and see women as both incapable and untrustworthy.

In the Helen phase, men are somewhat more integrated with their Anima than in the Eve phase but still have an aversion to the Feminine and see women as capable but untrustworthy.

In the Mary phase, it is named for the Virgin Mary. And the Feminine is idealized and viewed as pure goodness without any capacity for wickedness…. And women are seen as the purer sex.

In the Sophia phase, this reflects a total dropping of shame regarding the Feminine side and a full integration of Anima. And the Feminine is recognized as multifaceted and women are seen as just human (without the projection of the Anima overlaying them) and are seen as free agents capable of both good and evil.

What you describe here is what happens when a man in the Mary phase is faced with the reality of women being capable of ‘evil’. And they can either use this to transcend to the Sophia phase of slip back into the Helen phase.

You are completely out of touch with reality. In fact, most of the time men force themselves to be more “feminine” than they are in order to seduce.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I feel strong emotions of shame for not having to lived upto masculine ideals. I work on the shame by getting those things done.

The reason why men are such pussies is that they don't have enough shame at all. That's why they live like total losers and other men kept them in check by shaming them, not that it's particularly healthy.

There is no abstract way to work on shame & men are direct and straightforward in the way they deal with reality. When men say they want something, they really want that. Not getting that is what results in shame. And treating shame is like treating the symptom instead of cause.

Shame is about feeling fundamentally unworthy of existence. 

And the only antidote to shame is unconditional self-love.

Any attempt to fix one’s self will always backfire and produce more shame because shame is about feeling invalid on the level of being.

And running from shame is not a sustainable motivation strategy.

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@Emerald 

Idk, what's really like in the US, but when I talk to men and women, I see that men tend to have unconscious shame or opposition around being or acting "feminine". If they don't live up to some "masculine" fantasy, they'll fail as men without really knowing themselves.

Yes, this dynamic is a big part of what I mean.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

You are completely out of touch with reality. In fact, most of the time men force themselves to be more “feminine” than they are in order to seduce.

Are you saying that men generally don’t feel pressure to match up to a Masculine ideal?

Are you claiming that men as a collective actually feel more pressured to be Feminine than they are pressured to be Masculine?

[Bobby_2021]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Shame is about feeling fundamentally unworthy of existence.

Or work hard and build character to be worthy of existence again.

And change the existence (external reality) itself. 

I think DaVinci had immense shame associated with living a wretched existence. That's they he was always on his toes to live life intentionally in accordance with his highest values.

Unconscious shame can be a problem because you don't have any means to reverse it, even though you could have possibly worked on it.

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

shame is about feeling invalid on the level of being.

There should be some reason for being invalid. If you can work on it, then do work on it.

If you can't work on it, then it's not a good idea to shame yourself on it. 

Feeling shame for things you can't change is a serious problem. In that scenario, I agree with you that the correct path of action is self love.

But if you can work on yourself, then just get it done. That's the best love you can do to yourself given your circumstances.

Context matters.

The fundamental problem is ignorance and unconsciousness.