Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[Emerald]

With the rise of social media and the internet, a dynamic that has likely been bubbling underneath the surface of humanity for millennia has finally coalesced, come to a head, and been laid bare for the world to see.

And the pattern that has coalesced can be seen in communities like Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, and the Manosphere in general. You can also see it in men who aren't directly involved with these online communities but that tend to have a lot of bitterness and mistrust towards women. And you can see these same patterns arise in pickup/male dating communities a lot as well.

But what most people aren't yet aware of is what the actual root of these movements/groups is.

People who are involved with and/or sympathize with these groups see these communities as a place for male empowerment. Many view women as having too much power, and see these movements as a way to put women back in their place.

People who are against these movements notice the misogyny and problems within these groups and tend to demonize them.

But both the supporters and detractors of these groups tend to only view them on the level of the symptoms but aren't aware of the actual root of the problem.

The actual root of the problem is that many men are pressured and/or perceive a pressure to match up to an impossible Masculine ideal. And this produces feelings of shame because no man can actually fully embody that ideal. And this produces an intense anxiety in men at any part of them that deviates from the Masculine and is seen as Feminine.

So because having Feminine qualities (or just non-Masculine qualities) becomes a deep-seated anxiety, this causes many men to push their sensitivity, vulnerability, and Feminine side in general into the Shadow. And there is an intense feeling of shame associated with any hint of emasculation.... which can include but is not limited to being rejected by women.

Then, because women are viewed as a reflection of their repressed Feminine side... there is an attraction/repulsion dynamic in men. This causes them to obsess about women and put women at the center of their life and to see women as the arbiter of how Masculine they are. She is seen as the one that can validate or invalidate him.

But it also creates this repulsion too and a deep mistrust because he has pushed away his Feminine side and has lots of negative feelings towards his inner Feminine. And she sees her as a cold conniver that is deliberately denying him of his sense of worthiness.

Most men are impacted with this shame about not matching up to the Masculine ideal to some degree or another.

But the men who are the most resistant towards their Feminine side and who are the most pre-occupied with matching up to the Masculine ideal will tend to have the most intense shame and get sucked into Manosphere dynamics on the internet.

And instead of men coming together to work through the shame problem as a group, the focus tends to be on things that will trigger, agitate, and sooth the shame wounds through collective sexual obsession over women coupled with misogynistic grousing about women.

And it's like collectively using the image of women as a scapegoat in order to tongue the wounds of shame over and over.... then soothe them over and over. So, it becomes an addictive cycle that feels cathartic but that doesn't actually address the deeper shame wound.

It's a bit like the scene in Midsommar where all the women in the village are coming together to scream and cry together and share in eachother's pain.

But because people are not yet aware of this underlying male shame pattern around repression of their Feminine side, it is only looked at on the surface level. And people haven't realized that to cure the sickness we have to treat the germ and not the fever.

And the germ is shame.

Also, an important note is that a lot of guys who think they have problems meeting/dating/approaching women actually have problems with shame, and if the shame was resolved those issues with making connections with women would go away. 

[mr_engineer]

What I'm gathering from what you've written, is that the problem is the existence of the masculine ideal that these men are striving to embody. 

I have a few questions for you. 

• Would it be better if they had a different masculine ideal to aspire to? If so, what would a better value-system be? 
• Should there be a masculine ideal to aspire to? Or, is the existence of the ideal in and of itself the source of shame, so if we had a different masculine ideal, they would have a different source of shame? 
• Should men have a goal to get laid? Or, is that a part of the coping-mechanism with shame? In other words, is male sexuality fundamentally a problem? 
• You say that 'if the issues with shame were resolved, the problems making connections would go away'. How would that work? What is a 'man' in your eyes, how would these men express themselves in a way that would be attractive to women, after resolving their shame? 

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What I'm gathering from what you've written, is that the problem is the existence of the masculine ideal that these men are striving to embody. 

I have a few questions for you. 

• Would it be better if they had a different masculine ideal to aspire to? If so, what would a better value-system be? 
• Should there be a masculine ideal to aspire to? Or, is the existence of the ideal in and of itself the source of shame, so if we had a different masculine ideal, they would have a different source of shame? 
• Should men have a goal to get laid? Or, is that a part of the coping-mechanism with shame? In other words, is male sexuality fundamentally a problem? 
• You say that 'if the issues with shame were resolved, the problems making connections would go away'. How would that work? What is a 'man' in your eyes, how would these men express themselves in a way that would be attractive to women, after resolving their shame? 

I'll answer your questions one by one...

• The issue is the ideal itself. Since no person can match an ideal, it sets the stage for shame. But healthy male (and female) role models are important as long as they are not idealized.
• When there is an ideal for reality to match up to people will always feel shame because no one is ideal. But the more extreme that ideal is, the more difficult it is to match up to. So, a good baby step in the right direction is to hold a more ordinary ideal image that's within striking range. And that ideal would have to be a more integrated ideal that includes things that are pro-social like warmth and emotional intelligence. So, there are healthier and unhealthier ideals. But overall, any ideal that's held onto tightly will produce shame.
• There is no problem with having sex-oriented goals like getting laid. And male sexuality isn't the problem. It's only when you cross-multiply sexuality with shame that problems arise and those problems tend to take on the forms I mentioned in the post above with men. So, when guys are in this shame dynamic, things like sex, dating, relationships with women, etc. all get sucked into that internal shame dynamic and creates a feeling of need for female validation that wouldn't be there anywhere near as strongly if the shame wasn't there. There is a normal level of seeking validation from others that we all have, so it wouldn't go away in its entirety. But this shame dynamic turns sex with women into a strategy to validate one's existential worth by proving to themselves they're worthy of female validation. And from there it creates a ton of unhealthy sexual dynamics that are a reflection of shame. And it causes sex to be more of an obsession because it feel like a pathway to get rid of the shame and feel existentially valid (even though sex cannot actually do this).
• One thing that a lot men don't tend to realize is that women are attracted to regular guys. And they don't need to fit the Masculine ideal to have women take interest in them. And that attraction comes mostly from human to human connection in a social setting where men and women are just being ordinary people together. When a man is dealing with shame (especially around a perceived failure to fit the Masculine ideal), he will have issues having casual nonchalant ordinary conversations with women because the stakes feel too high because he will view her as an arbiter of how well he fits the Masculine ideal and therefore as an arbiter of his worth. When a man is dealing with this shame dynamic, he becomes like an open wound and women he's attracted to are like a big squirt bottle of lemon juice. The lemon juice wouldn't bother a man who's not dealing with shame too much and feels more secure in himself as he would have fewer open wounds. But a man who is deeply afflicted by shame in this way won't be able to relax in this dynamic because the stakes feel too high. And he will often let off signals that can scare women off. So, it's not as to say that he will become more attractive by dropping shame as it's not about adding attractiveness to himself. It's that it will take away the subtle cues that are repelling women. It's more about subtracting the repel signals that he puts out for fear of the lemon juice hitting the shame wound. He would just be able to be himself more and be more confident in himself... and sometimes this that or the other woman would be interested in him because most women are attracted to men.

[Leo Gura]

That's part of the story. But mostly it's simpler than that: guys are just horny and want pussy. And when they don't get it they get very pissy, manipulative, and invent all sorts of stories and rationalizations about it.

The pickup community is just an elaborate scheme to satify guys' need for pussy. It's hard for women to understand this because wome don't have the same need.

Edited April 9, 2024 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

Quote

The actual root of the problem is that many men are pressured and/or perceive a pressure to match up to an impossible Masculine ideal. And this produces feelings of shame because no man can actually fully embody that ideal. And this produces an intense anxiety in men at any part of them that deviates from the Masculine and is seen as Feminine.

So because having Feminine qualities (or just non-Masculine qualities) becomes a deep-seated anxiety, this causes many men to push their sensitivity, vulnerability, and Feminine side in general into the Shadow. And there is an intense feeling of shame associated with any hint of emasculation.... which can include but is not limited to being rejected by women.

I think you as a woman project your natural insecuritys and vulnerability on men to try to understand them.

Men don't have such pressure to follow the ideal of their gender and have no shame or anxiety. That's a typical woman problem.

Men just want girls as Leo said. And to get girls you need to use tools. Men then come together to discuss which tool is the best. That's the pickup community.

[Emerald]

56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's part of the story. But mostly it's simpler than that: guys are just horny and want pussy. And when they don't get it they get very pissy, manipulative, and invent all sorts of stories and rationalizations about it.

The pickup community is just an elaborate scheme to satify guys' need for pussy. It's hard for women to understand this because wome don't have the same need.

Sexual needs are also intricately woven into this dynamic.

But the fundamental toxicity of these groups doesn't foundationally come from unmet sexual needs... it comes foundationally from shame. And then that shame translates into more difficulties finding a sexual partner which aggravates and amplifies the whole shame dynamic.

There's also a dynamic where people are socializing less, which leads to more of a capacity to project onto the opposite sex. So, that must also be accounted for as an external factor.

But if you go into any Manosphere space... they aren't all gravitating there because they lack sex. (In fact, some men who hold this shame are having quite a lot of sex.) They are all gravitating there because they are all dealing with the same shame dynamic.

Edit: Also an important thing to keep in mind is that if it were just about lacking sex, then pickup would fix the dynamic. But it doesn't fix it because being unsuccessful with women is a symptom and not a root cause. And most men still externalize their sense of validity onto women even if they get good with getting sex. This is why pick-up communities can be just as toxic as any other manosphere space as it is usually men who feel shame gravitating together.

Edited April 9, 2024 by Emerald

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, QVx said:

Great post @Emerald, something this section of the forum has been in dire need.

I think providing some examples of powerful male role models for men as part of your post would be the icing on the cake. Healthy SD stage yellow individuals who resonate with the generations of people between 15-30 would be perfect.

Such examples would no doubt help bridge the gap between the complex dynamics and subsequent nuances you’ve presented. The core foundation for change is that of being able to provide a more simplistic and accessible pathway for men at the level of development you’ve described.

Only through real life examples will the inspiration and connection required for their growth and transition of the exploration, integration, and transcendence of the polarity of masculinity and femininity be achieved.

Keep up the great content  

Thank you! I don't have specific examples of men in mind. But a good litmus test is how okay he is with just being himself without too much fixation upon being Masculine. And just allowing whatever happens to be there to be there.

And men who feel secure in themselves even in being kind, warm, tender, etc.

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But the fundamental toxicity of these groups doesn't foundationally come from unmet sexual needs... it comes foundationally from shame.

How would you know?

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, OBEler said:

I think you as a woman project your natural insecuritys and vulnerability on men to try to understand them.

Men don't have such pressure to follow the ideal of their gender and have no shame or anxiety. That's a typical woman problem.

Men just want girls as Leo said. And to get girls you need to use tools. Men then come together to discuss which tool is the best. That's the pickup community.

This 'men trying to match up to a Masculine ideal' dynamic is very obvious even at a cursory glance.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

How would you know?

It's observable

[mmKay]

Aka insecure horny frustrated men making noise

edit: add to that the psyches tendency for forming ideologies 

Edited April 9, 2024 by mmKay

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, mmKay said:

Aka Insecure horny frustrated men making noise

It's unwise to minimize men's pain like that.

Edited April 9, 2024 by Emerald

[mmKay]

You did the elaborate analysis. I boiled it down to the very essence. Both are valid. It's not being reductionistic or condescending. It is accurate and the words are carefully chosen

Edited April 9, 2024 by mmKay

[Emerald]

Just now, mmKay said:

You did the elaborate analysis. I boiled it down to the very essence. Both are valid

You missed the essence entirely because it subtracted the compassion and understanding of root causes.

[mmKay]

22 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You missed the essence entirely because it subtracted the compassion and understanding of root causes.

Perhaps it misses an compassionate approach , but the root causes are that all men are horny, some barely get laid if at all, and these men, who by definition are insecure ( to some degree or another - I put macho men in that category as well , one degree less insecure than than feeling helpless and depressed ) feel powerless and rationalize all kind of stuff to cope with their situation 

This is just a modern manifestation of a certain demographic that has always existed. It's the kind of social demographic that over hundreds of thousands of years would have to resort to r*pe as a reproductive strategy ( im really stretching and exaggerating to make a point)

Being compassionate has its time and place, specifically when dealing with people, but let's not loose track of what their shenanigans are really about . 

Nothing personal but If you strongly disagree about that being the very core of issue of we are discussing, you don't understand the straightforward nature of men

Yes the pressure of modern society is a heavy weight for men, In a similar way that women compete with plastic surgery barbies .

But that is an adittional factor, not the core 

Edited April 9, 2024 by mmKay

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

But the fundamental toxicity of these groups doesn't foundationally come from unmet sexual needs...

I disagree.

When you combine unmet sexual needs and immaturity in an echochamber with no mature leadership, you get toxicity.

I've been in those circles, I know how those guys think. It's hard to understand it without going in it.

I didn't go into pickup because of shame or any kind of shadow stuff. I went in it because I needed a practical way to get a girlfriend and there wasn't really any other way. All the mainstream dating advice is weak garbage and doesn't produce results. Guys who want results want a hardcore approach. But that hardcore approach is then ruthlessly pragmatic and transactional. Like a business. It's not much different than if you wanted to make a bunch of money quickly. That requires a cutthroat attitude. So that's what pickup becomes.

Incels and MGTOW communities are built around victim mentality and bitterness towards women. Guys who won't or can't take action slide into Incel and blackpill community. MGTOW is more about divorced guys who have been hurt.

Edited April 9, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Ulax]

Agree

[mmKay]

Like

[The Renaissance Man]

I agree with Leo and found myself in the same situation.

The misoginy then comes for another reason though. I've been in and through it:

Men here, tell me if I'm mistaken:

• For years young men are told by their families, culture, women themselves, to be nice to them etc etc in order to be attract them. This coupled with their need for pussy turns them into weak servants of women when with them, they see them on a pedestal. Those creatures to satisfy, so mystical, so beautiful.
• Then you stumble on the truth of the things: that behavior is the farthest thing from what a woman is attracted to. Holy shit!
• Then those cultures (redpill, etc) promote an idea that the very reason of your suffering, of those ideas of behaving like a nice guy, came from a feminist culture, that promotes women as princesses in movies and men as chasers, that see masculine traits as toxic, etc etc. As a man you have those traits and tendencies, and you feel like your authentic behavior is seen as wrong.
• So you feel a boiling sense of revenge, against all the suffering you had in your unsuccessful (with women) teenage years, and against the idea that masculine traits are oppressed and deemed as inherently toxic.

I was able to "escape" from the misogynistic mentality, while learning the good lessons, by seeing first-hand how those cultures (redpill, etc) make the problem much bigger than it is. Most women aren't ruthless (obviously), and you are free to act as a man in society as long as you have common sense and don't spread mysoginistic propaganda, and you won't get banned, etc. etc. It's actually appreciated (obviously, again).

The mysoginy comes from magnifying those truths, because there's some truth in that, and coupled with the suffering that came from the bad advice society provided (to be a nice guy), BINGO! 

Edited April 9, 2024 by The Renaissance Man

[MuadDib]

On 08/04/2024 at 1:27 PM, Emerald said:

• Following/stalking One time, I was walking back to my apartment from college and there was a guy that was on one of the last roads I had to turn down to get home. And he was clearly on something as he wasn't making much sense. He kept saying to me over and over "I write grants." I think he was trying to impress me by bragging about his job. But he was like a zombie and kept on following me and repeating over and over "I write grants" like a zombie repeats over and over "Brains!"
• Putting too much emotional weight into the conversation One time in my early 20s, I was out at this cigar bar that I still occasionally like to go to from time to time. And I always go up to the top floor because they have a chess set there, and I like to try to find people to play chess with me. So, I went there one time and I went up to the top floor and there was a bigger guy up there. And he and I started playing chess and at first it was. a pretty normal conversation. But he slowly revealed more and more his self-esteem issues and a kind of bitterness towards women for rejecting him. And I started having to walk on eggshells because I was afraid of hurting his feelings. He was like an open wound that I had to be very gentle with. It was kind of like a dynamic I had when I was in elementary school where no one wanted to be my friend, so when someone did, I would cling onto them too hard. I felt bad for him and felt empathy towards him, but it did put me off as he couldn't just talk to me like a regular person.

There are other examples of creepy behavior I've experienced over the years. But these are the ones that come to mind off-hand.

 

 

5 hours ago, Emerald said:

And the germ is shame.

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

It's unwise to minimize men's pain like that.

^Men are deeply sensitive, sophisticated and complex emotional beings. We don't appreciate having all our problems reduced to one feeling or the other.