Vaping salt forms in e-juice

[What Am I]

It may not be as necessary as we once thought to use freebase when vaping using a device meant for e-juice specifically. The worry was always that salted forms require a much higher temperature to vaporize and aren't ideal for vaping, but that doesn't take into account the different method by which these e-juice devices function (lower temperature aerosolization into liquid droplets absorbed by the lungs). With that in mind, salted forms actually have a number of advantages, such as a likely higher bioavailbility and a PH closer to the human body, making for a better and more comfortable vaping experience.

The conversation and experimentation has been going on for a few years over at DMT-Nexus. Skimming through these threads will explain it better than I could.

https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/dmt-fumarate-vape.360812/#post-3856001

https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/dmt-salts-for-e-juice.367729/

https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/5-meo-dmt-salts-for-e-juice.369640/

I actually have a lot of experience vaping 5-MeO-DMT fumarate, 5-MeO-MALT HCL, and DMT fumarate using this method, and I can vouch for the sentiment expressed in these threads. It does indeed appear to be the superior method.

I realize this is going against the grain of the typical vaping advice, but I think we as people often get locked in a way of thinking and just kind of give knee-jerk responses that we've heard from others without really evaluating. In my opinion, the notion of "freebase only for vaping" is worth reconsidering in the context of an e-juice mix.

As a side note, I actually don't love the ROA of vaping in general, and I'd tend to recommend something like oral or rectal administration depending on the substance. Vaping an e-juice mix definitely has an unhealthy feel. In my experience, its largest advantage is that you can continuously control the intensity of the trip in a granular way. It's great for mapping out the territory of what's possible with a substance. My body and lungs have always felt like they've paid for it afterward though.

[Davino]

@What Am I I'll check it out. I'm searching for a comfortable way of redosing. Because rectal redosing doesn't feel that comfortable honestly. So then I snort but, I'm not satisfied with that either. It feels like a good way to blast off or redose. 

[What Am I]

E-juice psychedelic vaping is certainly the king of redosing in my experience. I've spent hours periodically puffing on the vape getting to different levels of consciousness. It's amazing for exploring various doses and inching forward into ever higher states. Like I mentioned though, it might take a toll on your lungs.

The absolute most comfortable redose ROA would probably be subcutaneous injection, but that's understandably a step too far for most people.

Edited April 6 by What Am I

[shree]

Is relying on a pH test to determine the toxicity of a substance effective?

 

Can we really rely solely on a pH test to ensure that we don't inhale toxic fumes when vaping HCl in e-liquid?

[What Am I]

The PH strip is to determine comfort in vaping by targeting a PH at a neutral level relevant to the human body. It's only related to safety in so far as it's probably not great to inhale something that's too acidic or too basic.

The idea behind the potential safety of the method has more to do with the lower temperature the e-liquid devices use. The example given in the first link mentions the fumarate decomposition temperature of 300C as opposed to the vape device operating temperature of 200C. In theory, the old worry of fumaric acid decomposing into a toxic chemical when vaped wouldn't apply here.

You make a good point though that it's difficult for people like you and I to actually know whether or not it's safe. It's not like we have a lab setup performing the necessary testing. In the absence of better data, it's up the individual to decide the level of risk they want to take based on the available information. Though I'd somewhat counter that the original fear of vaping salts in e-liquid might have been formed based on similar amounts of hearsay and lack of data.

Edited April 15 by What Am I

[What Am I]

The OP of the DMT-Nexus thread posted an update with a bunch of helpful tips towards an even smoother e-juice vape experience.

https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/dmt-salts-for-e-juice.367729/page-10#post-3943087

Edited July 13 by What Am I

[OBEler]

@What Am I I vape in a vape pen 5 Meo malt HCL with e juice (80%pg,20%vg) and it works perfectly.

However redosing is somehow difficult Because the real effects start after 10 minutes and you don't know when the peak is over so that it's time for redosing again. So overall redosing malt is difficult.

Do you also have this issue with 5 Meo malt?

[What Am I]

@OBEler interesting, I've also thrown 5-MeO-MALT HCl into a mix of PG and VG, and it worked perfectly for me as well, but I've only vaped it a couple times now so I guess I hadn't yet noticed that weird quirk with the delayed peak. It could be that the drug metabolizes into a different molecule and then has secondary effects. I could see how that'd make it difficult to time your doses.

[OBEler]

@What Am I so I really ask me what's the advantage of vaping 5 Meo malt besides probably saving some substance because it's more potent.

If you plug it it has the same time until it peaks, around 10-20 minutes. And your lungs will stay healthy.

[What Am I]

30 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@What Am I so I really ask me what's the advantage of vaping 5 Meo malt besides probably saving some substance because it's more potent.

If you plug it it has the same time until it peaks, around 10-20 minutes. And your lungs will stay healthy.

Yeah, I'm with you there. In the hierarchy of ROAs which have the least detrimental physical effects, injecting and plugging are probably at the top.

The benefit of vaping from a pen would be the way you're able to redose continuously. You can start low and then slowly and comfortably get yourself to a place where you're heavily tripping. This is opposed to the bolus dose used in injecting and plugging, which can have an extremely powerful intensity curve. Like you mentioned though, the vaping method comes at the cost of lung health.

[OBEler]

@What Am I yes but redosing with malt  falls away completely if you need to wait 10-20 minutes every time to wait for the peak. After such a long time you will not really be in mood to redose again and wait for another 10-20 minutes again. That's no control at all, also because now you even need to calculate tolerance effects so you need probably take even more. Which is even less healthy because vaping a lot of e liquid will harm your lung..also malt has the character of some unexpected waves out of nowhere. It's a bit unpredictable. Not like 5 Meo DMT where you get one strong hit and after that the effects go down.

Better doing the right dose at the beginning and that's it. But then you can also plug it.

 

Edited July 13 by OBEler

[What Am I]

@OBEler yeah, good point. If malt gives inconsistent effects when vaped, the ROA would lose its advantage entirely and wouldn't be worth using.

[OBEler]

12 minutes ago, What Am I said:

@OBEler yeah, good point. If malt gives inconsistent effects when vaped, the ROA would lose its advantage entirely and wouldn't be worth using.

It's ok. Malt is not something for a quick hit anyway. So a bit preparation for plugging is not so bad.

Edited July 13 by OBEler

[What Am I]

Here's another link focused specifically on mixing 5-MeO-DMT freebase with citric acid and PG.

https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/5-meo-dmt-salts-for-e-juice.369640/#post-3943863

[shree]

I have been testing 5-MeO-MALT with PG/VG but haven't had good results.

I just feel dizzy and knocked out at times. On the other hand, I tried vaping some low doses of 5-MeO-MALT HCl and had a really good, mild 1.5-hour long trip.

[What Am I]

4 minutes ago, shree said:

I have been testing 5-MeO-MALT with PG/VG but haven't had good results.

I just feel dizzy and knocked out at times. On the other hand, I tried vaping some low doses of 5-MeO-MALT HCl and had a really good, mild 1.5-hour long trip.

That is pretty interesting. I've also vaped 5-MeO-MALT HCl and had good success. It's possible there's a significant difference in ease of absorbability when using a salted form of a psychedelic and vaping using an e-juice device. I'm not a nicotine vaper, but as I understand it, the nic salt fluids are considered stronger than freebase at the equivalent dose, and it's recommended to not even use nic salts when vaping with a sub-ohm device due to it being too strong.

[OBEler]

1 hour ago, shree said:

I have been testing 5-MeO-MALT with PG/VG but haven't had good results.

I just feel dizzy and knocked out at times. On the other hand, I tried vaping some low doses of 5-MeO-MALT HCl and had a really good, mild 1.5-hour long trip.

I don't understand you havent good results but you had a really good mild trip? That's contradictory 

[shree]

8 minutes ago, OBEler said:

I don't understand you havent good results but you had a really good mild trip? That's contradictory 

I had great results when I vaped HCI on e-mesh.

Bad results when I vaped it with PG/VG.

[OBEler]

@shree ah now I understand.

I only tried vaping with PG/VG on a vape pen. I have good results, it works. Although I get headaches if I redose too often

[shree]

Guys any updates on this?

Did you have a successful experience with 5-MeO-MALT using PG/VG? Anything significant to report?

I have a small pile of MALT-HCl just sitting around since plugging hasn’t been effective for me, vaping on e-mesh is toxic, and PG/VG hasn’t yielded meaningful results for me, and the one i converted to Freebase also didn't have any expected effects.