Israeli Society - 75% for same sex marriage or LGBTQ civil union, top Vegan country

[yetineti]

@Vrubel

On 4/7/2024 at 5:21 AM, Vrubel said:

I am perfectly capable in acknowledging our own faults and recognizing the vicious-cyclical nature of it all and I don't expect people to share my worldview, some will be more cynical towards my people and that's fine but more often than not it crosses certain lines which I will not stand for. 

Even when I share something reasonable and peace-oriented I often get slammed down, so how can I have a reasonable and respectable objective discussion? I can't, It's too childish here.

 

What are those lines? So far you have not demonstrated you understand the severity of the situation here.

If you did, you’d understand why you get slammed. You’d understand that, ironically how you want Hamas to just lay down his weapons, you must lay down your ideas.

Surrender your ideas. You really think you’re going to have a reasonable conversation with people who are going through what the IDF is putting them through?

Also, it’s not fair to call it childish here while also calling people internet trolls and not engaging in real conversation yourself.

[Nivsch]

Its OK @Karmadhi even when we aren't think the same 🙂

Edited April 8 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

30 minutes ago, yetineti said:

@Vrubel

So far you have not demonstrated you understand the severity of the situation here.

I can throw this back to you but from the Israeli POV. 

32 minutes ago, yetineti said:

Surrender your ideas. You really think you’re going to have a reasonable conversation with people who are going through what the IDF is putting them through?

 

Relax, I have another POV than you. I am not an unreasonable person and if you think I am then it's you who is projecting and lashing out at me for not being part of the hivemind

 

[yetineti]

@Vrubel Right…. If I think you’re wrong I am wrong… if I say one thing you could say the opposite.

Do you run the IDF?

[Merkabah Star]

Charles Manson was also a vegetarian and was very vocal about animal rights. 

 

[Karmadhi]

17 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I can throw this back to you but from the Israeli POV. 

The risk of loosing another 50 childreen does not justify killing 15.000.

Especially when a good portion are just out of revenge and not to gain anything.

No sane person would say that.

That is Nazi mindset.

Also the attack is Israel fault for their policies through decades.

So no complaints there.

As Leo says, take responsability.

 

[Karmadhi]

On 07/04/2024 at 9:34 AM, Vrubel said:

WTF!? How is that "Lolz"? 
If Hamas lays down its weapons and frees the hostages the war will be over immediately. You basically behave like a standard teenage internet troll.

Because what is you said is ridiciolous and it deserves to be laughed at.

If Israel lays down their weapons you can make the argument that they will be indeed killed. No disputes there.

But Israel has made it clear they want a 1 state solution where Palestinian Arabs will be treated like lesser citizens under a fascist regime.

No thanks.

Ukranians are fighting for the same reasons.

Ironically Russians treat Ukranians in the occupied territory just as bad if not worse than Israel treats Palestinians in West Bank. And that is in case you are not kicked out and your house stolen by some Zionist nut head.

Shows you what "peaceful resistance" gets you with Israel.

Perhaps one day with a Liberal peaceful government that may indeed work.

Until then a state for them is the best and only solution.

Living under Israel occupation seems horrible.

 

 

Edited April 9 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

40 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The risk of loosing another 50 childreen does not justify killing 15.000.

Especially when a good portion are just out of revenge and not to gain anything.

No sane person would say that.

That is Nazi mindset.

Also the attack is Israel fault for their policies through decades.

So no complaints there.

As Leo says, take responsability.

 

 

I would say I take responsibility for the eroding of some global sympathy from reasonable people due to problematic policies and hard-right elements but that’s about it. Some people are just blind haters, they twist and stretch and mush everything through their narrative. It's impossible to take responsibility for that. There is no excuse or blame shifting for 7/10 full stop. And ultimately things like "image" and anti-semitism abroad are secondary concerns when securing your state and people. 

 

Are kidding me!? I’ll do everything in the world to save 50 Israeli children. I gladly will give my life for it. I wish The Palestinians viewed their people with the same reverence and did not use them as human shields or disposable pawns. Even if you don't care about Israelis being murdered, raped and kidnapped at least you should see how 7/10 has thrown the Gazan people under the bus and imposed the consequences of war on them. 

 

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Because what is you said is ridiciolous and it deserves to be laughed at.

How convenient to shut people down who do not indulge in your prepackaged narrative.

[Nivsch]

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

But Israel has made it clear they want a 1 state solution where Palestinian Arabs will be treated like lesser citizens under a fascist regime.

But there are 2 million Palestinians right now in Israeli cities and villages, living alonside the Jews. Why don't you ask them too what they think?

The dehumanization cycle between West Bank or Gaza Palestinians and Israelis is a positive feedback involving both sides.

Edited April 9 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Some people are just blind haters, they twist and stretch and mush everything through their narrative. It's impossible to take responsibility for that. There

And how did they become blind haters? Israeli behavior turned them. None of the people I know had issues with Jews but they are very critical of Israel and the way they are conducting this war.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

And ultimately things like "image" and anti-semitism abroad are secondary concerns when securing your state and people. 

But cant you see that that is causing Israel to loose tons of support and downright become isolated even from countries which showed it sympathy at first. Killing 7 Western aid workers is the latest development in this course of events. 

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Are kidding me!? I’ll do everything in the world to save 50 Israeli children. I gladly will give my life for it.

That is because you are a nationalist Israeli. Also, because you are talking about 1 life. I think most would do that. No issue there.

However that attitude on a country level leads to devilry which is why international law exists.

If a country wants to do genocide and mass murder innocent kids,  to save couple hundred of its people then the world should isolate them and basically rip them to shreds until they come to their senses.

Issue is that here all this mass murder is just revenge. They could have done the same damage to Hamas command with 1/10 of the death and destruction. Much was just as revenge because in their sick minds they see a 8 year old Palestinian as Hamas or Hamas supporter. I read an article of how they used AI to bomb low end Hamas people at home and kill their whole families with them. So yeah, they deserve to abandoned.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Even if you don't care about Israelis being murdered, raped and kidnapped at least you should see how 7/10 has thrown the Gazan people under the bus and imposed the consequences of war on them. 

Before that attack nobody was talking about a Palestinian state. Now everyone is talking about it. Also this genocide war has made Israel arguably the most hated country in the world and lost tons of support, especially with young people who are the future leaders of the world. Especially with stage green people.

Edited April 9 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But there are 2 million Palestinians right now in Israeli cities and villages, living alonside the Jews. Why don't you ask them too what they think?

Then how come most respectable organizations call it apartheid? Also mostly I refer to west bank here.

But apparently Israel proper is also discriminatory towards Jews and non Jews.

I am not informed a lot but I read all independent organizations call it such.

Especially with the current fascist government.

I said that with a new liberal government that could change.

Edited April 9 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Even if you don't care about Israelis being murdered, raped and kidnapped

Its not that we dont care. Its just that the scale of it for a modern war is small. 800 civilians dead happens. I do not see why everyone is making such a big deal out of it. Especially considering some of them were killed in cross fire which again happens in war. Probably the same number of civilians died in the latest Armeania Azerbajan war in 2021 and nobody gave a shit. Only when Jews die people get so outraged.

And ironically Armeanians have went through a genocide too, yet nobody gives a shit.

To put in perspective 30.000 civilians died in Bosnia, 9000 in Kosovo, 300.000 in Syria etc.

800 is small in comparison. But in itself is quite tragic and if you would ask people I doubt most would not say that it is a bad and sad thing. 

Israel lying about some of the stuff does not help either. They lied about 40 beheaded babies. That makes people assume that they are lying about other stuff too. Once you are proved as a liar people will think you are lying even if you say the truth. Which is why lying tends to be a bad strategy. Many people claim there was little to no rape, people were not burned alive or beheaded etc. Even if those actually happened. Israeli propaganda shot itself on the foot here.

Lastly not showing the footage to the public furthers the disbelief. I saw they only showed some of the harsh footage to certain journalists from Western medias. Since people cannot see the actual massacre footage they will deny most of the atrocities. And I checked Hamas.com but could not find any real footage of torture or rape. No beheadings either. Just people shot. Which happens in war. Israel did tons of it in the past. Everyone does.

 

Edited April 9 by Karmadhi

[Nemra]

@Karmadhi 

Every day, the Azerbaijani army starts fire from every corner they can and gaslights the world that we are doing it. It's crazy. After the 2021 war, they took Karabagh in 2023 forcefully with no mercy.

[zazen]

While it may be true that 2 million Palestinians live well alongside Jews in Israel, it overlooks the underlying tensions that exist. I know Palestinians living in Tel Aviv and Nazareth who barely share anything on social media regarding the situation or even like/comment on things to avoid any possible issues with the authorities. It also fails to account for the 5 million other Palestinians, of which 2 million reside in the besieged Gaza Strip, and the 3 million living under military occupation in the West Bank. This is the reality that most refer to when they speak of apartheid in the Israel. 

"Pinkwashing" is when a country uses its relatively progressive LGBTQ+ rights policies and representation as a way to distract from or deflect criticism from its human rights abuses. The argument is that Israel purposefully highlights its inclusive policies towards the LGBTQ+ community as a way to portray itself as a tolerant, modern democracy, while simultaneously perpetuating human rights abuses and an occupation of Palestinian territories.

While no one denies LGBTQ+ rights progress in Israel, it shouldn't be used as a political tool. This becomes a 'human rights industrial complex' which co-opts the very movements it claims to champion, using them as tools of oppression rather than instruments of freedom.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

I know Palestinians living in Tel Aviv and Nazareth who barely share anything on social media regarding the situation or even like/comment on things to avoid any possible issues with the authorities.

There is mutual suspiciousness between Jews and Arabs what is natural, so I agree with you that both sides need to be careful on the other side's sensitivities.

1 hour ago, zazen said:

living under military occupation

I think differently than you. This is a very fuzzy situation because this area was actually taken from Jordan in 'six-days' war in June 1967, but Israel still hasn't applied its sovereignity on a big chunk of this area.

Don't forget that in Jordan too there are palestinians I can say too are under an "occupation" of the Jordanian rule, but it won't be a honest definition.

Another factor is that Israel has really no choice but to secure this area for obvious deffensive steps because of the distributed settlements there that make IDF to stay in the depth of the field. I can't say that I like this situation but an evacuation of these settlements is not really an option. Barely to evacuate Gaza in 2005 was a very difficult task accompanied by huge resistance.

Another factor is that IDF and the Palestinian Authority co-operates in security missions together and in intelligence resources to prevent hamas growing there, because hamas is kind of enemy to the Palestinian Authority because it won't hesitate to take the charge from them in force, just like did in Gaza in 2007.

Edited April 9 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Only when Jews die people get so outraged.

 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Israel lying about some of the stuff does not help either. They lied about 40 beheaded babies. That makes people assume that they are lying about other stuff too. Once you are proved as a liar people will think you are lying even if you say the truth. Which is why lying tends to be a bad strategy. Many people claim there was little to no rape, people were not burned alive or beheaded etc. Even if those actually happened. Israeli propaganda shot itself on the foot here.

Lastly not showing the footage to the public furthers the disbelief. I saw they only showed some of the harsh footage to certain journalists from Western medias. Since people cannot see the actual massacre footage they will deny most of the atrocities. And I checked Hamas.com but could not find any real footage of torture or rape. No beheadings either. Just people shot. Which happens in war. Israel did tons of it in the past. Everyone does.

What you’re doing is plain old atrocities denial, it’s pretty hypocritical behavior for the side that gets off on smelling its farts of moral superiority. Not everything can be mushed through your narrative so you have to resort to denial, backhanded tactics and finding a way of blaming Israel for the morbid stupidity and the depraved behaviors of others. What's new. 

 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Only when Jews die people get so outraged.

If you don't care about that, that's fine but it would serve you more to not speak about things you don't understand so you won't blatantly expose your hypocrisy, ignorance and morbid disrespect. 

 

[yetineti]

@Vrubel

5 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Are kidding me!? I’ll do everything in the world to save 50 Israeli children. I gladly will give my life for it. I wish The Palestinians viewed their people with the same reverence and did not use them as human shields or disposable pawns. Even if you don't care about Israelis being murdered, raped and kidnapped at least you should see how 7/10 has thrown the Gazan people under the bus and imposed the consequences of war on them.

How are comments like these allowed?

You should do anything to save any children.

How are racist comments like these allow here?

Vrubel is openly saying they’d do anything up to and beyond killing 20,000 (1000 times) the amount of Palestine children for just 50 Israeli children.

Oh AND it’s the Palestinians fault the IDF killed them, he says.

Edited April 9 by yetineti

[yetineti]

@Vrubel

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

 

What you’re doing is plain old atrocities denial, it’s pretty hypocritical behavior for the side that gets off on smelling its farts of moral superiority. Not everything can be mushed through your narrative so you have to resort to denial, backhanded tactics and finding a way of blaming Israel for the morbid stupidity and the depraved behaviors of others. What's new. 

 

If you don't care about that, that's fine but it would serve you more to not speak about things you don't understand so you won't blatantly expose your hypocrisy, ignorance and morbid disrespect. 

 

“Plain old atrocities denial” ?!?!!?

You’re the one downplaying the IDF doing 1000-2000x times more killing.

[yetineti]

@Vrubel All you’ve done is deny peoples points and when they start to make better ones you ignore completely. 
 

You stopped replying to me to tell other people how they shut down and don’t address things. 😂

and you’re still just name calling and insulting people too.

Take your own advice and let the people who have studied the topic speak and maybe take a seat. You’re clearly riddled with personal bias here.

[Vrubel]

4 minutes ago, yetineti said:

@Vrubel

How are comments like these allowed?

You should do anything to save any children.

How are racist comments like these allow here?

Vrubel is openly saying they’d do anything up to and beyond killing 20,000 (1000 times) the amount of Palestine children for just 50 Israeli children.

That's not the point I made. I wrote what I wrote and don't twist that.

I have nothing against Palestinians as a people, I wish for peace, and two states seem as the most reasonable solution. 

 

2 minutes ago, yetineti said:

@Vrubel

“Plain old atrocities denial” ?!?!!?

You’re the one downplaying the IDF doing 1000-2000x times more killing.

I have no issue discussing hard topics like civilian causalities rates in a respectful and reasonable way. But I don't get to that because I have to be defensive against all the lies you people spread.